Vx - Does knock detection cause spark misfire?

[antus]

the flow spec will be an amount of volume (cc) or fuel weight (lbs in a minute - I think), and that should provide a fuel pressure that applies for. Fuel pressure is higher or lower, that'll change the flow. Then you have opening time data versus voltage. Higher voltage will open slightly quicker than a lower voltage, hence why this is a table. You can pulse the injectors at different speeds and calculate the different amounts to work out the average of how long they take to open at your operating voltage. The flow rate stuff ends up being a bit of a generalisation because there are enough analog factors in the car that its hard to calculate everything. Normally you'd get at as close as you can with the information you have, then you'd tweak the flow rate up or down a little by hand to get the fueling close to start with. Sometimes it might even be as rough as saying stock is 19/lb and your aftermarket is 32/lb a min so 32/19 = 1.68 so its 68% more flow than stock, then multiple the factory inj rate by 1.68 to apply the difference, then move on to opening times. If the data you have is just a single number you might need to use that for 13.8volts, and then slope it either side by a couple of %. But the better the data you have, preferably with real voltages for the opening times too the closer you'll get for less manual work in the tuning.

[JohnDee68]

Thanks antus,

Reading your last post has just made me think that I haven't actually measured the voltages at the injector on the car. Though that shouldn't be anything relating to how the injector pulse times the software is reporting back, surely? What is the required voltage at injectors meant to be. I presume that will vary slightly as you say that is why there is a table scale range?

Yes, the part number of the injectors I have are given up to 4 different values from different sources. Hence why I am matching the testing/my measurements of the injectors in the test machine, to replicate the injectors when in my car. Then calculate their flow rates on that.
As the cheap machine I have access to doesn't allow for simply measuring flow rates at 100% duty cycle which is what they are rated by for flow and as you state, the specific pressures at that time also. I need to do some maths to work it out going on the constant test results with the machine. Do I make sense in how I am trying to explain what I wanted to do as a checking method?

Do you recall and if so, can you explain what the setting is referring to in TunerPro where it say: "Injector - Fuel boundary locate this CAL after 3 x ref" ?

I need to find a wiring schematic now which is related to my ECU, as the ones i have currently don't align at all in any way either. Which makes it a lot harder to diagnose anything.

Thanks antus,

John.

[antus]

Use the most legit sounding flow rate you can find, give it extra points if it gives you a pressure that rate is at and you don't need to go and find pressure in some other doco.

The voltage at the injectors should be B+, the PCM switches the ground side, so the injectors show full voltage with ignition on. There is a measuring tool in the PCM, though in extended its re-purposes for wideband input. But if you are using that in stock form you should have injector voltage monitor in your data stream.

What is the part number of the injectors you are looking for data for? Are they stock for any Holden calibration you can use as documentation?

You should be able to get wiring here viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2272

[JohnDee68]

You are a gem antus, thanks.

I hadn't come across those wiring diagrams before.. They seem to be the ones that will match my car. Along with those and the manual I have, i should be armed well to do the electrical diagnosis later this week. I hope.

The injectors I have, and only need are part numbered 0280155777.
Which I have had a few different variants found in writing of their specifications over the years.
for example:
BOSCH LBS/HR CC/MIN GRAMS PSI BAR Resistance
14.25 149.8 107.7 43.5 3
From Bosch 19.8 219.3 150 40 3

All for the same part number. And mine I believe might be lower in the range as well. But i want to check with my calculations to see.

[immortality]

This info should be correct,

viewtopic.php?t=1230

It shows the 777 injectors to be
VT, VX, VY V6
0 280 155 777 (EV6)
21.44 LB/HR 219.85 CC/MIN 162 G/MIN 12 Ohm 3.5bar OP


Some websites list it at 3bar which then give you somewhere in the 19.9lbs/hr

edit:

which just about matches the Bosch data you listed, From Bosch 19.8 219.3 150 40 3

VT-VY ecotec run 3.5bar fuel rail pressure so those are the numbers to work too.

[JohnDee68]

Hi imortality, thanks.

I'm not doubting those are the figures. But they don't (unless I am miscalculating) seem to tally up with the injectors that I have which are my set of originals, a set of suspecting counterfeit, and a few mixed old genuine from wrecks and appear to all be working 100% fine in spray pattern and operations. I will see, once I get the formulae correctly working. Just what the injectors are putting through.

I am more intrigued as to how there can be such a variant with the same part numbers. I understand the quantity could vary with the testing pressures, but if they are the same part numbers, they should all give the same volume when tested on the same pressures with say a slight 2% variant allowance, in my theory.

I have tested like 2 sets and 2 other injectors so far with the same numbers and they give different values at the same testing pressures.
My desire is to confirm, get a value of the injectors that all run equally balanced. then use that value in the Base Injector rate and see what it runs like, if it makes any difference. I cant see it as any different to putting a larger flow injectors in and having to let the ECU know the size of the injectors flow rate. This way I can use any set of injectors (in theory) and tell the ECU what they are to be and it should be able to calculate correctly to a point of its processing limitations. Though that will be after I ensure all electrical is correct. Now that antus has put me on to correct wiring manuals for my car, I am keen to soon rule out (or find a fault) any wiring and electrical issues.

[immortality]

There were literally hundreds of thousands of V6 Commodores out there with those injectors and the corresponding data in the tune.

You really need to test at 100% DC, if you pulse then the calculations will be wrong as you are introducing to many variables.

The1 has a very good test rig and has been through all this.

[antus]

I think you can just trust the flow rate. Its a constant, the injector is a physical size, the pressure can be verified, they will flow the same when full open. You dont want to risk damage by holding them full open to test this.

[JohnDee68]

There were literally hundreds of thousands of V6 Commodores out there with those injectors and the corresponding data in the tune.
You really need to test at 100% DC, if you pulse then the calculations will be wrong as you are introducing to many variables.
The1 has a very good test rig and has been through all this.

I think you can just trust the flow rate. Its a constant, the injector is a physical size, the pressure can be verified, they will flow the same when full open. You dont want to risk damage by holding them full open to test this.

Yeah, thanks guys. With giving the idea with the injectors flows more thought tonight, I will just put it in the back of my mind at this point. As I am happier this evening after seeing wiring diagrams that should help me to check ALL the potential wiring for any issues this coming Thursday- Tuesday. As I hope to have access to shelter out of the weather then.

I do really appreciate all your help, advice and sharing of knowledge guys.
I am determined (as if I have any choice) to find the cause of the issue(s).

Thank you.

[JohnDee68]

Hi Guys, not vital if you don't know or haven't got time. I will fully understand.
I just wanted to ensure I am actually using the correct xdf file for my ECU. I am using the VX_V6_$BD_Enhanced_v0.9e.xdf From what i can find it seems it is the one I need to use.
It seems to be the best match for what I can tell with the data when compared to other xdf files on the Vx's. I just wanted to be 100% sure as the ECU number (16269248) I have doesn't come up on the ID cal locater when I last looked, so I wanted to just be sure I am actually changing values for the correct data bit when it flashes to the ECU.

Thanks.