hq monaro

[vlad01]

I heard the opposite, so the story is Holden were looking at improving handling pre RTS and sent cars to GM in the US and they apparently said they couldn't find a way to improve as their comment was it was the best handling non European car they had driven and there was nothing wrong with the handling.

I am not sure which is true but the US didn't have anything good handling until the VE era here in which we shared our designed chassis with the US starting at that point.

[MAGP]

US GM cars were just as crappy as ours pre RTS. The only ones that actually handled were later (70 1/2 and on) Muscle cars (G Body?, like the Chev SS, Pontiac GTO, Olds 442, and Buick GS) and the F Body Camaro and Firebird. Before the 70 1/2 models were released they were sloppier than diarrhea in a nappy. With the Pontiac F Body being the best handling car GM built. The 70 1/2 and on F Body (2nd generation) was what holden developed the HQ off, the similarities are easy to see both physically (especially the Firebird) and mechanically. The Pontiac version of the F Body sat the engine back further than the Chev version so it had better weight distribution than the Camaro but the real handling advantage come from the huge (at the time) sway bars and softer springs with better shocks to control the spring rates. The only thing that let the F body down was the rear leafs springs and drum brakes, Kevin Bartlett complained long and hard about them in the old Group C days cause the rear springs couldn't hold the power (axle wrap) and the drum brakes didn't stop the cars very well. Most US Camaro owners worked out very early that fitting the Pontiac sway bars and springs helped handling alot but both manufacturers had to wait till about 1975 before rear discs were an option on the top line cars.

Just incase anyone wants to import an F body and convert it to RHD take some advice and don't use a HQ-WB stearing box, use a rack and pinion kit instead. The greatest downfall of the HQ-WB after RTS was made available was the steering box and drag link. The boss (Chuck ?????) of Holden at the time of the VB Commodores development was a smart man and he knew the old steering design was a serious problem so he told the devs to ditch the Opel steering box and develop a rack and pinion setup for the Australian Commodore instead. The Leyland P76 left its mark on the Australian auto industry as the first large family car to have rack and pinion and the Commodore was the 2nd 4 years later, Ford waited until 1988 with the EA before they figured it out.

[MAGP]

I heard the opposite, so the story is Holden were looking at improving handling pre RTS and sent cars to GM in the US and they apparently said they couldn't find a way to improve as their comment was it was the best handling non European car they had driven and there was nothing wrong with the handling.

I am not sure which is true but the US didn't have anything good handling until the VE era here in which we shared our designed chassis with the US starting at that point.

I have heard that as well. RTS was a European development which we got hold of because Chuck Chapman had worked with Opel in Europe before he got the top job at GMH. The US got it a little earlier than we did but not much earlier and only because they released changes each year while we released changes each model.

[vlad01]

Yeah I thought it was derived from Opel as I had noticed the Opel Commodore C was basically the exact same car as the VB commodore. Except the VB was much more re-enforced for our environment and with a more gutless engine than what the Opel had.

Even the suspension components look identical on most parts.

I love the fact the Kadett C and the Gemini are the same thing practically, but same thing with a shiter engine here.

[HQ355]

There's nothing standard in the suspension of that HQ, google the build, it's a work of art though and I'd love it in mine

[MAGP]

@Vlad Holden had used others for many years, the early Torana was a Vauxhall Viva, the 1st gen Commodore was a mixture of the Opel Rekford and Senator (the Senator had a longer front clip that would fit our 6 cylinder engines), the Gemini was Isuzu designed and used by GM all over the world, and even the venerable HK-HT-HG was remarkably similar to the first generation of Opel Commodore A.

@HQ355, it is obvious the way it handles it isn't standard. I'll look it up to see if I can see any build threads. Is it based on Pro Touring ideas or is it just the owners own design?

[HQ355]

@Vlad Holden had used others for many years, the early Torana was a Vauxhall Viva, the 1st gen Commodore was a mixture of the Opel Rekford and Senator (the Senator had a longer front clip that would fit our 6 cylinder engines), the Gemini was Isuzu designed and used by GM all over the world, and even the venerable HK-HT-HG was remarkably similar to the first generation of Opel Commodore A.

@HQ355, it is obvious the way it handles it isn't standard. I'll look it up to see if I can see any build threads. Is it based on Pro Touring ideas or is it just the owners own design?

It based on the owner is lucky enough to be cashed up and sent it to a place that does good work and know what there doing, can't remember the place as the cars been around for a while

[MAGP]

For a cool $145K it could be yours http://www.my105.com/ListingDetails/id/9694

[vlad01]

@Vlad Holden had used others for many years, the early Torana was a Vauxhall Viva, the 1st gen Commodore was a mixture of the Opel Rekford and Senator (the Senator had a longer front clip that would fit our 6 cylinder engines), the Gemini was Isuzu designed and used by GM all over the world, and even the venerable HK-HT-HG was remarkably similar to the first generation of Opel Commodore A.

@HQ355, it is obvious the way it handles it isn't standard. I'll look it up to see if I can see any build threads. Is it based on Pro Touring ideas or is it just the owners own design?

Similar yes but actual model the VB up to VK was based was the Commodore C from Opel.



Even has the same trimmings, panels appear the same as well as the bumps.


Even stated here the Australian early commodore was an extension to this model in its linage. But you are correct on the Pre commodore models of Holden being the Rekord (though I can't find any documentation, 100% it must be looking at the Opel models) and there is resemblance to the commodore as well, after all the Opel commodore was much a better equipped version of the Rekord on particular models

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Commodore

And then the successor was the Omega

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Omega


As for the Kadett, they used an Opel engine not an Isuzu engine, hence why I said the Gemini's engines was not as good. The Kadett and its engine are highly regarded in Europe for one of the best and fastest hill-climb cars, despite being many decades older than the evos, and other modern rally cars used.

[MAGP]

Similar yes but actual model the VB up to VK was based was the Commodore C from Opel.

Sorry Vlad, the VB was based on the Rekord with the Senator front clip. The Rekord was the base for GMs global V car platform. The Commodore C was based on our redesign of the European Rekord/Senator. While Wikipedia should never be consider the font of all knowledge it is nevertheless a good start for basic research
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_Co ... [quote]The VB Commodore was loosely based on the 1977 Opel Rekord E bodyshell but with the front grafted on from the Opel Senator to accommodate the larger Holden six-cylinder and V8 engines, giving it a similar appearance to the Opel Commodore, the Vauxhall Viceroy, sold in the UK and the Chevrolet Commodore, sold in South Africa.[/quote]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Comm ... .931982.29

The Commodore was dropped by Opel in Europe and absorbed into the Rekord range of 1983. It is this model which the early Holden Commodore models were based on, introduced in late 1978, and eventually replaced (after several facelifts) in 1988, with a model with styling based on the then-current Senator and Omega models.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Reko ... _Commodore
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Senator
You can see the VK-VL 6 window design in the Senator

As for the Kadett, they used an Opel engine not an Isuzu engine, hence why I said the Gemini's engines was not as good. The Kadett and its engine are highly regarded in Europe for one of the best and fastest hill-climb cars, despite being many decades older than the evos, and other modern rally cars used.

While the Kadett C used an Opel engine the T car was designed to enable the various manufacturers to choose the engine they wanted. The SOHC G series engine we got was certified for our emissions regulations. Our market was very different to theirs. As an aside the 4 cylinder Opel engine used in the Torana before the Starfire 4 was a dog of an engine. Gutless, difficult to work on, and expensive to repair compared to the Starfire which was just gutless.

Anyway this is a long way from the HQ this thread is supposed to be about.