Right to Repair.

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Fixed until broken
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Right to Repair.

Post by Fixed until broken »

So what's the general feeling on right to repair here?

For those not familiar with it, to dumb it down into a few sentences. What most advocates are asking for is documentation, parts, firmware, and the same tools as repair centers. Most are not asking for this for free. Manufacturers are welcome to sell this it just needs to be available.
That's the dumbed-down TLDR of RTR.

I am asking because it helps me do videos on the topic. hearing people's issues with it and what people like about helps narrow topics for videos. Lately, I have been doing short 15 second videos on it for Youtube shorts. If you want to see the link to my channel is in my signature line.
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The1
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Re: Right to Repair.

Post by The1 »

i grew up working and being around several tv repair men and electronics workshops where you would use a schematic that was included inside of the tv when taking the back off to diagnose and repair the tv.

Now we can take 2 brand new genuine iphones even identical in models and swap the cameras and it wont work as they are serially paired to the phone.

I Rest my case.

For the automotive scene it was VZ Commodore for me and pretty much most cars since then require some form of security pin to keep the computers happy, replacement modules can only be new unlinked modules by the manufacturers terms, so there was no using second hand modules unless you were lucky enough to get a working car to unlink it first from. Then finding the pin code to run the link or unlink procedure was impossible unless you had the cars security card or had a dealer happy enough to obtain the pin code. I know of cases where VZ's have been scrapped because it was to costly to replace the ECU and of late GM's systems seem to be having issues even running proper procedure to do any of this legitimately as they would rather you buy a new car.

Now in 2021 were back to square one, no parts available to even manufacture some things and we can't repair what we have so it now forcing those in some positions of power to realize we need local manufacturing and repairability.
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antus
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Re: Right to Repair.

Post by antus »

Yep ^^ exactly that! Its moved past the availability of factory information and tools, mostly they are available to end users manufacturers of 3rd party tools. Its become about if the products are designed to be fixable, and the manufacturers are definitely moving away from that as The1 describes. The argument now needs to be that products are designed without lock in so that 2nd hand parts can be re-used, or generic parts made available. Apple seem very active in this regard, actively trying to figure out how much they can get away with. The got busted for slowing down old phones and were told thats no go https://www.npr.org/2020/11/18/93626884 ... -slowdowns and they got busted locking out 3rd party displays and things of similar nature. But they keep pushing the limits. https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/04 ... arty-shops Its definately bad for consumers, and bad for the planet.
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Re: Right to Repair.

Post by Fixed until broken »

Like I said it was the extra dumbed-down version of the explanation of it. I agree with what you mentioned.

Even if your pro repair what's your best argument against it and the counter to that?

I'll go first. RTR will lead to loss of IP and products will start getting copied overseas. this is due to trade secrets hiding in schematics a source code being released into the wild.
The counterargument to that. First, no one is asking for source code in RTR. This is a false statement given over and over again by the anti-repair lobbyists. No proposed law has asked for this yet. They are twisting the request for complied firmware into the source code. Arguing that the bin can be decompiled and turned back into source code is a weak argument at best. Yes, it can be done but it's not that simple. You do not get a 1 for 1 source code. It also can be done today with enough effort ( as anyone on this forum knows lol) Manufactures already do not properly lock do firmware on micros and such for the most part. Even if they do you can decap the chip and easily read the ROM if it is 1-time flash and with the correct tools you can still read flash memory this way. So if your firmware is really worth reverse engineering that can be done today. The second part is trade secrets in schematics. Anyone today can make a schematic of your device without it. if your device is really worth that trouble it can be done today but those troubles are rarely worth it for repair and can be destructive without Xray. Schematics do not equal gerber files and other production-ready files.

Let me know if I have any points that don't make sense or you think are simply wrong.
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Re: Right to Repair.

Post by antus »

I think thats right. The counter angle I'm most familiar with is the trade off to security, especially as cars move more in to self driving. If cars can be modified then its possible that someone might install back doored firmware and cause it to do something dangerous on the road. In the case of internet connected self driving cars, malicious hackers who want to see the world burn could trigger a fleet to go to max throttle in the city streets. But I think that security and right to repair can co-exist. The ability to reset a vin number in a device and link a second hand part to a new network does not mean that the network is not secure. A great example is open source software. While we are not talking release of source code for right to repair, the opensource software community can be shown as an example of code which is freely available and secure at the same time. If secrets are needed to make software secure, then those secrets can always be stolen or leaked. Security comes from design. You should be able to provide all the information about your product, but keep your security keys private, and nobody should be able to find a way to compromise the system. I think auto manufacturers are aware of this after a few early examples of security researchers showing what they could do over the mobile network or via direct connection to the obd port, and they are doing things like isolation of different data networks in the vehicles to keep required functionality but reduce the attack surface and they are not assuming mobile networks or vpn networks between cars are secure. Right to repair does not mean reduced security by design.
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Re: Right to Repair.

Post by jxx »

Shit just ain't built like it used to be.
All for cost cutting to an extent to make something but building to fail and parts not being available................. sure save a few cents, it all adds up when there's 1,000,000 units.
But making a name instead of a dollar is not the mentality of today.
And here we are, much like The1, grew up tearing crap apart and you'd have a schematic stuck inside the unit or worse case it was a copy close enough to a common known item that it could be worked out.

Or sometimes you could buy a book on the subject item collated with all known variants of the product, having a bunch of schematics showing differences between brands or revisions.

You do have the right to repair, automotive industry is basically going standardised, you can get all the information you want on all the older proprietary system if you are willing to pay.
Much like the older days, you could repair but it'd cost you.....

Luckily by the time we want to get to this, it's an obsolete product and there are many people out there ready to raise a middle finger to the money hungry penpushers that wouldn't be able to change a flat tyre following the instruction in the manual.

Gone are these days, unless you can scale through hole to smd and wedge bonding easily and cheaply.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmDJpFmxgLo[/youtube]

Actually put it into practice instead of doing short youtube videos complaining how hard it is.

Don't get me wrong, repairing is great..... but flogging a dead horse won't make it move any faster.
General consumer electronics no one gives a crap about, if you pay top buck for the flagship phone and you drop it..... who's fault is it? if it's a genuine flaw in manufacturing then it's illegal for the company to refuse replacement or refund.
Same deal for the flashiest brightest tv, shit's only as good as its life time warranty and when it's broken its life is over.
Now electronics in a car, when the vehicle is still perfectly serviceable and cripple by 1 component that makes it refuse to start or run, different story. No car should be disabled from starting and running from a simple thing like a dash cluster shitting itself and needing to be replaced.
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Re: Right to Repair.

Post by Gampy »

None of this would be an issue if it were not for one human trait ...

GREED!

A democracy cannot survive in a capitalistic society ... Capitalism Trumps Democracy!
Intelligence is in the details!

It is easier not to learn bad habits, then it is to break them!

If I was here to win a popularity contest, their would be no point, so I wouldn't be here!
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Re: Right to Repair.

Post by Fixed until broken »

jxx wrote: Actually put it into practice instead of doing short youtube videos complaining how hard it is.
I literally do repair for a living. I specialize in automotive circuit boards and railway signal boards. I also do freelance technician work for an engineering firm that that does D.O.D. repair work specialized in RF. He also keeps me busy with with contracted repairs with certain manufacturers that are in our area.

The fight for right to repair is actually counter intuitive for me because then it opens the door and makes it easier for competition to learn. Although I simply believe it's the right thing to do. If I am purely being selfish though it does secure my future in repair though.

So I'm not making YouTube shorts to bitch about repair. It's supposed to be a conversation starter simplified for non-technical or semi-techical people.
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Re: Right to Repair.

Post by antus »

I think its moving closer to right to repair by replacement. As jxx points out board level repair is getting harder and harder. Usually people just want or need to take a salvaged board out of recycled equipment and swap it in. The vin locks and the like in automotive platforms that stop you doing this when you know which module is dead and you have a working module from a wreck and you cant interface the two, is quite wasteful, and allows the OEM to EOL the car though out of stock on the replacement parts in their time frame. In Australia manufacturers are required to have replacement parts available for a certain number of years, but there is no law about reasonable pricing so the prices are often steep. Parts from the wreckers counter this when they can be used.

Even in phones and tvs component level repair is almost unheard of, its all module / board replacement.
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Re: Right to Repair.

Post by Tazzi »

Im pretty sure I have done a post about this but targeting GM specifically.
They might give people the keys to the kingdom to repair electronically (programming), but doesn't mean they are going to have it do it correctly.
Perfect example is immobiliser not programming/delinking correctly during reprogramming sessions on secondhand modules. It USE TO work correctly, but uses incorrect immo codes on most modules as of today. :shock:

This enforces using brand new modules, which means the dealerships get that profit straight off the bat instead of second hand parts being used.
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