V6 heads, differences.

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vlad01
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Re: V6 heads, differences.

Post by vlad01 »

if you could find late VX to VY heads, that will make a great comparison.
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Re: V6 heads, differences.

Post by delcowizzid »

ive been talking to a couple of guys who done hard yards doing r&d on both eco and buick heads.eco flows about 10cfm more at high lifts but buick had the best average flow numbers over all lifts and would be a better overall head
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Re: V6 heads, differences.

Post by vlad01 »

but its not all about flow numbers that make a head good, how the flow behaves and enters the combustion chamber is more important followed by flow numbers.


That said, the buick ones have lots of meat to work with to reshape the chamber. ecotec ones are definitely better out of the box. The chambers are really good for efficient clean burn.

so the experts in v6s say the pre pre pre ? ecotec heads "real buick v6" as they say have awesome heads, far better flow wise than anything 80s upward.
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Re: V6 heads, differences.

Post by vlad01 »

mmmmm :P

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Re: V6 heads, differences.

Post by immortality »

It's a shame they don't fit our engines.
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Re: V6 heads, differences.

Post by vlad01 »

out of the box these flow 213 cfm @ .500 in and 178 cfm @ .500 ex.

its pretty good, that is the best one they offer. They claim up to 270 cfm with full out porting on intake and 187 on exhaust @ .550.

stock ecotec flows 184 in and 148 ex @ .500
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Re: V6 heads, differences.

Post by delcowizzid »

slight weld in the corners of the valley where the head meets and a custom inlet they would probably work LOL.i know immortality went and checked out some alloy ones availiable here for earlier model was a shame they wernt just bolt on LOL.im hoping for around 230cfm on the inlets
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Re: V6 heads, differences.

Post by vlad01 »

apparently those ZZP alloy heads can get around high 200s with porting. They are made for L36 and L67.

I read some posts on their development int he early days and the figures were about 217/200 @ .500 more or less out of the box, low lift numbers are really good which matters.

Im sure they have improved a lot since 2004

here is a post i found, interesting read. it

"--------------------------------------------------------------------
The project continues. We're adding another picture and some details.
Some people question whether we were honest in discussing the level of performance our heads will offer. We were also challenged on the validity of our engine masters comments. Follow this link: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/engine ... m_shopdir/
Under the State of TN,you'll see our guy who owns Cadillac Performance Parts. He is one of the few engine builders capable of placing in the world renowned Engine Masters Challenge.

We have improved our heads over the factory units in about a dozen ways. One of them is the problem high horsepower cars have with MLS gaskets leaking at the top and bottom of the chambers. We have addressed and fixed this issue with changes to the structure of the head. More details and internal pics to come...

November update. Injector bosses, and spark plug holes are completed in the CNC design.
------------------------------------------------
Feb 2007 Update:
We ran into some issues with the final version of the heads. We had to send back the final samples for revisions to the water jackets as we felt some areas had room for improvement.

Pictures are updated.
One of the major flaws of running the 3800 heads on high HP cars is the tendency for gasket seepage under high loads. To fix this we made four improvements.
1. Increase the deck thickness of the head. This improves strength and gives room for safely milling for high compression applications. Naturally aspirated cars should be able to achieve 13:1 compression with head milling.
2. Improve the internal webbing of the head. Revisions to the passages in the head have given it increased rigidity
3. Increase the distance to atmosphere. The stock heads have just under half an inch from the cylinder bore to the outside of the engine. ZZP heads have 3/4 of an inch.
4. Extra bolt hole amenities. For those planning on 30 pounds of boost and higher, the ZZP aluminum heads are setup for use with extra bolts on top and below the cylinder. Revisions to the internals and water jackets have made this possible.

The potential performance of our heads comes in many areas but one in particular is shown in the pictures. If you look at the stock head where the rockers bolt to and compare to ZZP heads, you will notice drastic differences. ZZP aluminum heads have the rocker pedestal mounts connected for a few reasons. For one, it gives greater rigidity to the rockers enabling higher lift and spring pressures. Next, it allows custom drilling and larger threads. Finally, we brought the rocker mount all the way to the back of the head. This allows for custom applications where you raise the intake port. Watch for more details about this soon.

Pre-order pricing for bare heads (machining done, no valves/guides/seats/springs) will be $1199.99, we have not determined final pricing, assembled or ported pricing yet. This pre-order will allow those planning on running their own hardware or doing custom porting to get them sooner than others. Unfortunately the ship date for heads has been pushed back to May 1st.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Update Nov 8 2007
-Slowly the project has continued. We have now completed the first set of heads. We will be dyno and flow testing within the week. We're hoping for some impressive initial numbers with continued improvements as we experiment with valve size and placement changes, spark plug depth changes, and tweak a few other things. Completed heads are 17.55 pounds which will end up saving just over 30 pounds from stock heads.
-We are most likely going to change our original pricing and options on the heads to selling assembled heads only. We have not decided on final valve sizing or spring rate. We are currently using LS1 valves for compatibility.
--------------------------------------------------
Update Nov 13, Flow testing
-This is the 3rd revision of the heads. It's the first we felt comfortable finishing to install on a car. The first samples had no water jackets. The second were completed but the water jackets were too large in some areas. These seem correct but we still have some issues to work out in the machining programming. Guide placement, optimum valve depth, valve seat style and diameter, spark plug depth and many other issues are going to need to be optimized. Those will account for small improvements in final numbers but we needed a preview to know what ballpark we are working with.

Things to keep in mind about flow numbers:
1. We have tested many competitors heads and found their flow numbers do not match what is located on their web site.
2. Runner volume is important when matched to flow numbers. A popular competitor with CNC machined heads takes a lot of material out of the intake runner. This causes real world reductions in torque and charge velocity.
3. Without a baseline, posted flow numbers don't mean much. If someone measures 200cfm it doesn't mean it's higher than someone else's 190cfm. We have seen instances where baseline numbers were very low. We look for improvement over stock, not peak numbers compared to someone elses. The clay radius and exhaust pipe used can cause drastically different results.
4. Flow numbers over .500 lift don't mean much. We can change the valve type to gain flow over .500 lift but it sacrifices flow below .400 where the valve spends the majority of it's time. If you have an XP cam the time that the valve is held open over .500 lift is very minimal. All of our heads (except stage 4) are optimized for higher lower lift flow numbers.

Measured stock intake followed by exhaust(w/ and w/o pipe):
.200 114 103/109
.300 157 130/144
.400 181 144/162
.500 191 151/168
.600 197 152/171

Aluminum head as first completed (no pipe on exhaust)
.200 127 119
.300 175 141
.400 200 152
.500 206 157
.600 207 160

The heads as cast and machined had ridges where the seats were set into the heads, we determined that each head was going to need some slight work after seats were installed to blend them into the head. We also had a guide issue that required us to use slightly smaller valves than we wanted but we're still experimenting with valve size. We used 1.88/1.55 valves. Below are numbers after blending the seats to the casting (pipe on exhaust):
.200 132 128
.300 179 168
.400 210 193
.500 217 200
.600 217 211

We are going to continue with some variations as stated above and expect the numbers to improve but we are so far happy with the numbers. We should have dyno numbers shortly.

Update 12-14
We've installed the heads on a vehicle running an SS M90. The car is running 13psi with a 2.7" pulley on E85 fuel, S2 IC, 5% OD SFI crank, billet 75mm TB. Heads as originally cast decrease compression from stock slightly and would put a GTP around 8.2:1 with stock pistons. The deck on them is very thick enabling milling while keeping integrety. The stock heads are not like this. We milled these heads .075, used an L36 block and thinner head gaskets for ~10.8:1 compression. Dyno results were 425WHP on the best pull and 452WHP with converter locked (more info on converter locking and horsepower loss to follow in a tech article on our converter page).


-------------------------
3-12-08
Final version production castings are completed.


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Re: V6 heads, differences.

Post by Holden202T »

those heads will fit this little gem I have hiding in the shed :P 1978 I think I worked out it was! :)
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Re: V6 heads, differences.

Post by vlad01 »

well hurry up then :P
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