Crowd funded open source tuning program

shmiet
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Crowd funded open source tuning program

Post by shmiet »

Hi guys,

I am new to the tuning game. I really want to understand how the entire tuning process works. But this post isn't about that.

I personally have HPTuners and am OK with the cost as I only work on the odd vehicle. But, I came across this site and really like how much the users have contributed tools and info for free.

I was thinking about how great it would be if a few capable programmers came together and began developing an open-source Tuning software and interfacing hardware for the ECM(Similar to an HPTuners or EFILive software/hardware package).

-This way users wouldn't have to pay a per use cost
-They would be able to modify their own components and create custom tuners using for example Raspberry Pi

Using crowd funding, the people involved with the creation, would receive an upfront payment. They could also produce the interfacing hardware and sell that or come up with their own creations to sell. Keep in mind it would be open-source so if people had the desire they could make it themselves.

I would attempt to do this myself, however I lack the key skills in programming and computer engineering.

If I'm way off the ball feel free to tare me down.
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The1
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Re: Crowd funded open source tuning program

Post by The1 »

you dont mention for what this is for? For the ecu's and pcm's we support this is basicly already the case.
shmiet
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Re: Crowd funded open source tuning program

Post by shmiet »

To answer your first question: The purpose of the post was to simply suggest that you could change the tuning market. Not to say you havent already accomplished that; but, the information and technology that comes from things like this are endless. I'd like to think I could build my own EDGE programmer, but the demand is now not 10 years in the future when I really start to understand things.

Already the case? I am over looking the simplicity of the tools on here? For example:

TunerPro RT and an AVT 852 cable is essentially the equivalent?

What am I missing?
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Tazzi
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Re: Crowd funded open source tuning program

Post by Tazzi »

What your missing/not seeing is the shear complexity and requirements to develop hardware and software to flash an ecu. There is absolutely nothing simple about it. Not only does the hardware need to be developed from scratch (or use an AVT if money isnt an issue...) but the firmware that goes ontop of that, along with the pc software to be developed along with it.
To top things off, ecus need to be cracked open to get to the mcu, so that the bins can be read, disassembled, commented and interpreted to identify all the tables/options.

Id say theres a few hundred hours in the pc software development alone to enter in all the tuning options for each ecu type, and for each OSID of that particular ecu type. Then probably hundreds more for developing read/write routines.

Really, money isnt always the biggest problem. Rather time is the limitation, there is simply never enough time in the day. Im sure everyone on here knows what happens when you dive into a project/hobby that you enjoy, and 4+hours can go by in a flash.. and you could have literally made no progress at all!. :lol:
The main advantage that the tuning companies have over the public is time, and the man power that they can use on a single project, where entire days, weeks or even months can be utilized without interruptions.
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Re: Crowd funded open source tuning program

Post by antus »

Yeah its true. Many of us put heaps of spare time in to it (nearly all of the spare time we have!) and on this forum as a group (since 2009-02-26, to be exact - gee more than 5 years now!) we've gotten as far as we have, but to have any chance of catching up to the big players it'd need to be several people full time continually. At which point you need to ask as much money as the big players to justify the time considering the demand compared to mainstream stuff - which is reasonably low. The critical note of tazzis was exactly right - 4 hours, probably more, per operating system, plus time to develop the boot loader code to flash. And like anything technical, thats all just an estimate and reality can vary wildly when you get there. I suspect 4 hours per OSID might actually be very conservative, I'd put it at more like 4 days, even a week or two just for each definition, and thats if things go smoothly (and how often is that the case with stuff this technical?). Oh well, we'll carry on time permitting :)
Have you read the FAQ? For lots of information and links to significant threads see here: http://pcmhacking.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1396
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Re: Crowd funded open source tuning program

Post by Tazzi »

Oh yeah, I meant just sepdning 4+ hours on anything! Whether it be messing with algos, or simply researching and going through datasheets. Easily take weeks or months to work out just one OSID!.
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Re: Crowd funded open source tuning program

Post by The1 »

It took me around 2 years now to get enhanced to where it is and compaired to doing a whole ecu it is nothing.

GM's commodore delco ecu code evolved since 1987 or earlier to make it as advanced as it was before alloytec came in. Same as a lot of the aftermarket ecus its taken many years of revisions. Its not something that is quickly done.
shmiet
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Re: Crowd funded open source tuning program

Post by shmiet »

Well I appreciate the feedback you guys. I underestimated the difficulty I guess. Either way, I really appreciate what you all have done and continue to do. Thanks
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Re: Crowd funded open source tuning program

Post by rolls »

shmiet wrote:Well I appreciate the feedback you guys. I underestimated the difficulty I guess. Either way, I really appreciate what you all have done and continue to do. Thanks
I'm looking at doing this for the Ford platform and using existing cables as developing your own cable is probably 6 months full time to implement the entire J2534 stack not to mention the time to develop and manufacture the hardware platform. The reason almost nothing like this exists as even for experienced developers and programmers it is a massive amount of work, it isn't the difficulty it is the time requirement and if you have a full time job it means you need probably 2-3 years to get anywhere as if you are lucky you have 10-20 hours spare per week.

Once you have all of the above you have to develop definitions per ECU, as some models of cars have hundreds of different versions this means up to a day mapping each one and you need a master one to start with. If you don't have a master one you can spend a few months on this alone.

Basically, do you have a year+ of spare time you are happy to go unpaid for? If the answer is no, then chances are this won't happen.

The only reason I'm doing it is for myself and the model of car I drive, if I didn't own a model of vehicle chances are I wouldn't be interested in developing the tool for it. It does happen there are a lot of people interested in the BA/BF/FG falcons so that helps a lot.

I've probably spent about 400 hours to get to this point and I would say I'm about 25-50% of the way to releasing a software package. I have written about ~4500 lines of code at this stage however that was the easy part, the hard part was figuring HOW it all worked to even start writing code. There was loads of python test scripts I wrote before I even started on my .NET application.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4940

if you own a Nissan there is romraider, if you own a subaru there is OpenECU so there are quite a few things out there for various models of cars however at best you are going to get one tool per manufacturer as it is too much work to provide something for more than one if you aren't getting paid. There is a good reason companies charge >$1k for tuning software and then charge for a licensing model on top of it.

Put it this way if I was to fairly charge for the time I've put into this I would probably struggle to be competitive against existing paid options. Eg you valued the 400 hours I've spent to date at market rate which is about $120/hr for this sort of coding then thats $50k, who on earth is going to pay me that when I haven't even released anything?

I think the best avenue is just doing an opensource program for the love of the community, then start asking for donations or charging for elements you don't really want to do eg writing definitions for vehicles/cars that you don't personally own.
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Re: Crowd funded open source tuning program

Post by jay woo »

What vehicles would be a good idea for crowd funding? The entry point for some vehicles is very low and would seem almost a waste of time and effort . I only know of one project currently going down the crowd funding path and that is Nissan on the rom raiders forum. I think you may be surprised at what is available already at a relatively low cost in regards to reflashing. As has been highlighted, the work reverse engineering the code to make definitions, checksums and or reflash software is much greater than the programming work. Then data logging is also needed. Many of the free software already available is driven by a very dedicated and talented person. Those with the passion and skills are very rare. Look on most forums regarding ecu reverse engineering and you will be able count on one hand the number of people with the skills. On the same forums you will find many who can explain the ecu logic and provide tuning advice. The skills take time, practice and determination. Do not be scared to try just be aware that it will be like banging your head against a wall for a while.
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