PCMTec Development Blog

[rolls]

Hi, came across this thread off google. So excited about this, hp tuners and sct have owned the market for long enough and the credit/token system is rubbish.

Thanks for the support. What don't you like about the HPT credit system?

We are developing something fairly similar however it is more robust with changing VINs/strategys meaning in a lot of the circumstances in HPT where you would have to pay for credits twice you won't in our system. We are also providing the ability to flash "canned" tunes where you simply want to flash a file and not edit it (eg your tuner emails you a file), we are going to provide this at 1/3 the price of a full edit solution.

Would love to hear your advice on what you feel the failings with the current competition is, feel free to PM if you don't want to publicly post. I hope we can make something flexible, affordable and powerful. We are developing our pricing into 3 divisions, the DIY person who tunes their car only, the DIY person who wants to do a few mates cars but still get access to all parameters, and your workshop who tunes multiple cars per week, needs priority support and the ability to request new features with a fast turn around.

[admiralhaye]

I'm with bahave on the credit topic. That is if you are talking about charging for each pcm accessed. However, If you mean charging for someone to develop a tune for you, then it is more than justified. I would think that if you charge for the hardware, and charge for the software, then if the customer is capable of extracting and modifying the existing program or has the ability through stateflow or by directly writing the lines of code, then that is where the monetary compensation should end.
Hp and efi live would be my go-to if I could purchase the device and software, and then do as I please. Same goes with scan tool, I refuse to be bent over a barrel to have a multi platform bi-directional scan tool that costs not only $10k but also has $800 per month for access and updates.

[rolls]

Hp and efi live would be my go-to if I could purchase the device and software, and then do as I please. Same goes with scan tool, I refuse to be bent over a barrel to have a multi platform bi-directional scan tool that costs not only $10k but also has $800 per month for access and updates.

I don't think HPTuners or EFI live would survive if they charged for the software and not per car. If they did the support and quality of their software would suffer tremendously. If you are charging ~$600-1500 for a tune then $150 is more than fair in my opinion. They are also much cheaper than SCT which is ~$600 for the hand controller opposed to the $150 for credits HPT charge.

I always believe in the saying of you get what you pay for. If you are over charging someone else will come in and do it cheaper, but we rarely see that happen due to how difficult and challenging writing good tuning software is.

If you work out what it costs to reverse engineer binaries and couple that with permanent support staff and good quaity developers you see that it becomes unsustainable to not charge a subscription or per car fee for tuning software. For example the going rate for a quality developer/programmer in the US is about ~$150-200k a year. We have spent over a year with two of us working close to full time on this, so you can see why companies charge the amounts they do. If we couldn't put in sweat equity and do it ourselves I doubt you'd find an investor without a guarantee of reaping maximum profit per sale, eg the sort of pricing you see with SCT.

There is some pay once software out there but most of it is simply flashing only, not editing, or it is limited support or ability to only edit a very small subset of parameters.

[Bahave]

Thanks for the support. What don't you like about the HPT credit system?

You're right rolls, the hard working software developers need to make money and it can't be free. I don't like it becuase sct and hpt is not DIY friendly by price, and then having to buy 2 credits etc. For a simple adjustment, whereas you mentioned there will be a diy kit. Thats great, can't wait... literally because I have a BA sitting here waiting for the torque management to be switched off!

[rolls]

Yeah so our pricing will be split into 3 categories. We will have a basic DIY version that will be cheaper than HPT even if you include the purchase of a cable.

If you don't want updates or support you will only have to pay once and you can continue tuning your car forever. It is only if you want to tune other peoples cars or receive major updates/support you would need to purchase more credits/renew.

[andy18]

Yeah so our pricing will be split into 3 categories. We will have a basic DIY version that will be cheaper than HPT even if you include the purchase of a cable.

If you don't want updates or support you will only have to pay once and you can continue tuning your car forever. It is only if you want to tune other peoples cars or receive major updates/support you would need to purchase more credits/renew.

Rolls, first of all big THANK YOU for this. Did you consider including into your pricing category in which you will be allowed to read and write unmodified files e.g. for cloning? Or just a reading / writing tool. Something like BiTBox has?

Thank You!

[rolls]

Yeah so our pricing will be split into 3 categories. We will have a basic DIY version that will be cheaper than HPT even if you include the purchase of a cable.

If you don't want updates or support you will only have to pay once and you can continue tuning your car forever. It is only if you want to tune other peoples cars or receive major updates/support you would need to purchase more credits/renew.

Rolls, first of all big THANK YOU for this. Did you consider including into your pricing category in which you will be allowed to read and write unmodified files e.g. for cloning? Or just a reading / writing tool. Something like BiTBox has?

Thank You!

Yes we are planning to support "canned tunes" eg where you are not a tuner and don't plan to be but you want to flash a "chip" tune. Eg you've bought a tune off a tuner or your tuner is in a different city and is providing you a tune file. In this case you would pay a small fee to be able to read/write your vehicle but not edit the file.

This will tie in with our tuner lock functionality, so a tuner can create tunes, lock the files then sell/send them out to users and they can flash them themselves. If they are locked the end user won't be able to license the file protecting the tuners tune. The way we are locking files means SCT and HPT cannot read them currently. There are always ways around tune locking for savvy users but they will prevent the average joe ripping off tunes and selling them on ebay. The tune lock functionality will be remotely unlockable on a per user basis as well. Eg you get your car tuned and the tuner locks the tune, the tuner can then decide to unlock the tune for that customer only, or a specific workshop only.

[Gktune]

Where and how do I get this......

[tcpip]

Hey rolls,
Just been reading your thread and wow, looks like absolutely tonnes of work has been put into this and I cannot wait to see a beta come out! (Any ETA yet? )
Personally I am no tuner but definitely will be looking at trying this out as I've got a conversion in the works (preferably want to try using a FG PCM but all comes down to that pesky speed sensor having to come from ABS... if I can't figure how to go without FG ABS, the BF ECU will have to be used!) - have you managed to have a look into the VID Block side of things at all yet? (I'd be e.g. setting VIN and speed sensor etc etc..) I did remember you saying something along the lines of you haven't done the checksums?

Just curious if you guys have the 'HAER1' strategy mapped out at all? Last I read there was really nice progress on FG from the looks of things which is awesome! It would be cool to also be able to tweak the overboost maps for some more fun

While on the topic of FG's - when I've been going over stuff for a conversion I've noticed that there has been some slight changes from the FG MkI to the MkII (5 pins not used in the FGII) but interestingly the PCM still has the same hardware code of APS-234 (so I wonder if there was a change inside maybe a removal of solenoids or something??).. and also the calibrations from IDS - it tells me the calibration strategies are both the same between the MkI and II.

Would you have any clue whether there was a change in the RTOS between the two models? I figure that the RTOS could really be the only thing that would have changed between them both if they slightly changed the outputs but not the calibrations... or they never changed at all and just don't run the pins to the PCM!
(Mainly trying to figure out if the FG MkII PCM can still run the fuel pump relay because they decided to run it from the instrument cluster in the MkII!!) now I've typed this out to be perfectly honest I should just go with a MkI PCM since I could just flash another calibration set if I so desired, duhhh

Also would anyone have a clue here if changing a PCM to Auto/Manual is just contained in the VID Block or does it just a little more complicated than that?

My last question - I'm curious with the licensing - I read somewhere in the thread you were considering doing some form of locking to the strategy? (I ask as there's a few strategies I'd like to try on an FG PCM but not sure how your licensing would permit the flashing of this?)

Apologies for the huge reply! Anyway as I said before, definitely can't wait for this!

[DarrylC]

Hey rolls,
Just been reading your thread and wow, looks like absolutely tonnes of work has been put into this and I cannot wait to see a beta come out! (Any ETA yet? )
Personally I am no tuner but definitely will be looking at trying this out as I've got a conversion in the works (preferably want to try using a FG PCM but all comes down to that pesky speed sensor having to come from ABS... if I can't figure how to go without FG ABS, the BF ECU will have to be used!) - have you managed to have a look into the VID Block side of things at all yet? (I'd be e.g. setting VIN and speed sensor etc etc..) I did remember you saying something along the lines of you haven't done the checksums?

Just curious if you guys have the 'HAER1' strategy mapped out at all? Last I read there was really nice progress on FG from the looks of things which is awesome! It would be cool to also be able to tweak the overboost maps for some more fun

While on the topic of FG's - when I've been going over stuff for a conversion I've noticed that there has been some slight changes from the FG MkI to the MkII (5 pins not used in the FGII) but interestingly the PCM still has the same hardware code of APS-234 (so I wonder if there was a change inside maybe a removal of solenoids or something??).. and also the calibrations from IDS - it tells me the calibration strategies are both the same between the MkI and II.

Would you have any clue whether there was a change in the RTOS between the two models? I figure that the RTOS could really be the only thing that would have changed between them both if they slightly changed the outputs but not the calibrations... or they never changed at all and just don't run the pins to the PCM!
(Mainly trying to figure out if the FG MkII PCM can still run the fuel pump relay because they decided to run it from the instrument cluster in the MkII!!) now I've typed this out to be perfectly honest I should just go with a MkI PCM since I could just flash another calibration set if I so desired, duhhh

Also would anyone have a clue here if changing a PCM to Auto/Manual is just contained in the VID Block or does it just a little more complicated than that?

My last question - I'm curious with the licensing - I read somewhere in the thread you were considering doing some form of locking to the strategy? (I ask as there's a few strategies I'd like to try on an FG PCM but not sure how your licensing would permit the flashing of this?)

Apologies for the huge reply! Anyway as I said before, definitely can't wait for this!

tcpip, lots of questions but I will try and answer them in order as best I can. With respect to the VID checksumming and VIN editing that is done. Changing the VIN is a simple edit bit it means you can no longer edit the tune without another license. We are working on factory reset as well. I think HP Tuners might have enough to change the VSS source.

HAER1, yep mapped better than anyone else haha. We have tables for the gear based boost control and even the proper time control on them. Even more exciting is we have fixed the FGX stall up issue and has been proven by one of our Alpha testers (you will see it on Club FG if you are a member).

The calibrations are different, a MK 1 will stall up, a MK II has extra parameters controlling this as well as many other areas. As you mentioned there are some cluster changes as well. Rumor has it there is a VIN number in there.

And changing the config from auto to manual is not just changing the VID block, there are parameters that select the transmission type (auto/manual) as well as how it is controlled. Most people go for a manual factory file and install it. This is also common for fitting other transmissions like powerglides.

ETA, hopefully soon. This week we have been pretty much dedicated to the nuances of the ZF 6 speed, but other stuff like compare and ghost cams are being worked on as well.

PCMTec will support 3 products. Basic for the person tuning their vehicle, Professional for the enthusiast who gets access to all the parameters in something like SCT (ZF tuning included) and Workshop which is OEM level calibration.

Hopefully this helps.