Mother of all 7603 XDF files

They go by many names, P01, P59, VPW, '0411 etc. Also covering E38 and newer here.
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Snoman002
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Re: Mother of all 7603 XDF files

Post by Snoman002 »

NSFW wrote: At some point (and maybe we're past that point) it would be good to set up a Github repo with at least the key XDFs (2156 and 6125 for P01, 7603 and probably 2618 for P59), and corresponding PCM Logger XML, and get the community into the habit of contributing new stuff. Basically, establish customs/traditions for people to get credit for the hard work that it takes to develop them and keep thing growing. And keep that ball rolling as long as possible.
[sigh]

I tried...

https://github.com/Snoman002/Engine-Tun ... e-TunerCat

I'm no longer in this world, if someone wants to take this over I would appreciate it.

FWIW the data was intended to be structured so that it was machine parsable. I expect there is hope in using bulk processing and items such as table size tand tune shape to help parse out at least min XDFs for additional ECMs. Maybe I'm all wet but hopefully min viable XDFs for other OSs may be possible without needing IDA

Again, if anyone wants this please message me, I don't own GMs anymore.
persingc
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Re: Mother of all 7603 XDF files

Post by persingc »

Gampy wrote:Post 1 has been re-edited after my above comment ...

persingc,

It is well known Envyous Customs uses knowledge gleaned from this site, most commercial entities do, however Envyous Customs also contributes to this site.

Removing your xdf hurts only the community!

I assure you it's not going to affect them (Envyous Customs) whatsoever, in fact, it helps them, one less xdf for competition ...

I highly doubt anything in that xdf is unknown to them! ;)

Please re-think for community sake!

Thank you!
Gampy you are right. I'm reposting now. Version 9 is the latest release. The testing release is for things in progress.
persingc
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Re: Mother of all 7603 XDF files

Post by persingc »

roughneck427 wrote:I can tell you this xdf is not going to make or break the tuning community. Pete and Jason have everything they need already. Just because people don’t post don’t mean there isn’t info out there.
Way for them to contribute....
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Tazzi
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Re: Mother of all 7603 XDF files

Post by Tazzi »

persingc wrote: Gampy you are right. I'm reposting now. Version 9 is the latest release. The testing release is for things in progress.
Glad to see its back up for everyone! :thumbup:
persingc wrote:
roughneck427 wrote:I can tell you this xdf is not going to make or break the tuning community. Pete and Jason have everything they need already. Just because people don’t post don’t mean there isn’t info out there.
Way for them to contribute....
That statement is not indicating we have infinite supplies of XDFs, it indicates we have the required connections and resources to get the information needed.
This then brings it back to all the original posts we had where funding is needed to get the information. But I guess its just expected that we should spend thousands and just release for free.

Anyways, great to see the XDF is back up for the community :)
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NSFW
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Re: Mother of all 7603 XDF files

Post by NSFW »

What is it?
How much would you need to be paid to release it for free?
Crowdsourcing might work.
Please don't PM me with technical questions - start a thread instead, and send me a link to it. That way I can answer in public, and help other people who have the same question. Thanks!
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Re: Mother of all 7603 XDF files

Post by Tazzi »

NSFW wrote:What is it?
How much would you need to be paid to release it for free?
Crowdsourcing might work.
Its a mixture of their own custom R&D work from years of experience with ECUs, through usage of softwares such as winols and gm definition files to produce xml definitions for variety of Operating Systems on a variety of ecus.

Pricing is not an exact science for them. Depends on the time and work involved for them. Some things might already have premade def files, others may require hours/days of work to create thus their time must be compensated ect. Since we are only wanting to buy small amounts of data per operating system, this helps reduce their time needed, along with encourages payment (hopefully) from the Ad based system as time goes forward.

For the fact that these individuals don't post online about these things due to wanting to stay anonymous, along with wanting to avoid another giant commercial tuning company arising and charging huge amounts(Everyone feels the same), they don't want to see all the information posted freely to have the exact same thing occur. So releasing for free after the info has been paid back from ads (or crowd funding) then just results in losing these connections and no future OS's or ECU's will get support.

Basically there is a lot of trust being placed in us to do the right thing on both sides of the fence. Which is why I am open and upfront about the entire thing on both forum pages and social media.
Its not open source, but its at least going to maintain a free foundation for tuners which is the whole purpose of my initial proposal.
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160plus
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Re: Mother of all 7603 XDF files

Post by 160plus »

NSFW wrote: (And yes I do think XDFs are copyrightable and therefore GPLable - kind of like how an orchestra can copyright a recording of performance, even if they have no rights to the underlying score.) Without GPL for XDFs, we just have the honor system to steer people toward contributing what they add on top.
I don't think this is possible, at least not in any way that would ever hold up. Because every XDF requires using the same program and there is really only 1 way to display most tables/switches it then comes down to how something is worded or phrased and again there are only so many ways to label something. Displaying a VE table for example only has 2 possible method's and it's simply changing the X/Y axis for how the information is displayed. The table reference ID's where started a long time ago and are mostly unified between every tuning company now and for good reason. To copyright something i needs to be a unique work and there really is no way to make an XDF unique. At best it's simply a matter of how complete an XDF is.

I can also see the value of creators distributing locked XDF's and they have no real negative impact on the community. If someone wanted to add to an existing XDF....AND they had plans to share what they were doing they can go on pretty much any forum and find someone knowledgeable to message asking where they can find an unlocked version or how they could contribute to adding additional information to an XDF. Now if they didn't plan on sharing what they wanted to do, then why should they even have access to the unlocked version in the first place? This aspect does apply to your thinking that anything done under a GPL should be reshared and if the person isn't willing to do that then they why should the work of others be given to them? The only reason for this would be that the person plans to profit off what someone else did or try and take credit for another person's work.

There is also a huge risk factor when someone wants to contribute or alter an XDF.....who's going to check and or validate what they did? Maybe they didn't know what they were doing and made bad edits that then get redistributed to hundreds of users. I have spent a lot of time over the last couple of years tracking down bad XDF's that most of the time where the result of someone editing another person's XDF where they screwed something up and then started sharing it. I have also seen a lot of XDF's where some some simply changed the creator's name and did nothing else to the XDF. Why would someone do that if their intentions were to help others?

My final point and my issue with GPL's is who's keeping people honest and who's going to enforce it? I have run into several people who do nothing more then cruise Github looking for things they can take, only slightly alter/reskin and then sell for a profit. A prime example is with Ls Droid for Windows and most of the moderators in my Ls Droid group can validate what I'm about to say. I initially planned to open source the program when it was done and I guess I just got lucky that it took me a lot longer to release the program then I had been expecting because some people got antsy and started contacting me directly asking for copies of the apps source code. I heard reasons that ranged from "I'd just like to see how the app works" to "I'd like to make some changes in it for personal use and I promise I won't share your source code". When I declined to share the source these people started contacting my moderators and tried all sorts of things hoping one of them would share copies of my source code....of course the moderators would immediately inform me someone was asking for source code and they seemed suspicious. Tazzi actually caught one of these guys who had been asking for source code selling a hacked version of another program on ebay.....so it's not an assumption there are people out there with malicious intentions.....it's already been proven and we've seen what their plans are. These are the same type of people who cry about locked XDF's because they can't easily alter them and make them appear to be their own. This was exactly what happened with Antus checksum dll, a person hacked it to remove his copyright and then started redistributing the dll as their own along with XDF's they also claimed as their own that were being included as part of a bundle with a program/tool being sold on eBay.
persingc
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Re: Mother of all 7603 XDF files

Post by persingc »

Tazzi wrote:
NSFW wrote:What is it?
How much would you need to be paid to release it for free?
Crowdsourcing might work.
Its a mixture of their own custom R&D work from years of experience with ECUs, through usage of softwares such as winols and gm definition files to produce xml definitions for variety of Operating Systems on a variety of ecus.

Pricing is not an exact science for them. Depends on the time and work involved for them. Some things might already have premade def files, others may require hours/days of work to create thus their time must be compensated ect. Since we are only wanting to buy small amounts of data per operating system, this helps reduce their time needed, along with encourages payment (hopefully) from the Ad based system as time goes forward.

For the fact that these individuals don't post online about these things due to wanting to stay anonymous, along with wanting to avoid another giant commercial tuning company arising and charging huge amounts(Everyone feels the same), they don't want to see all the information posted freely to have the exact same thing occur. So releasing for free after the info has been paid back from ads (or crowd funding) then just results in losing these connections and no future OS's or ECU's will get support.

Basically there is a lot of trust being placed in us to do the right thing on both sides of the fence. Which is why I am open and upfront about the entire thing on both forum pages and social media.
Its not open source, but its at least going to maintain a free foundation for tuners which is the whole purpose of my initial proposal.
Absolutely zero of what you said sounds like legit A2l files are being purchased from the manufacturers being used to create a tuning app or definition. What it does sound like is somebody selling info out the back door of one of the major players or just plain ripping of others work. Neither of which sound above board like you previously claim. You aren't going to purchase part of a file that only has certain tables at least from the manufactures. Some person who feels under valued\appreciated at the major players probably.
persingc
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Re: Mother of all 7603 XDF files

Post by persingc »

160plus wrote:
NSFW wrote: (And yes I do think XDFs are copyrightable and therefore GPLable - kind of like how an orchestra can copyright a recording of performance, even if they have no rights to the underlying score.) Without GPL for XDFs, we just have the honor system to steer people toward contributing what they add on top.
I don't think this is possible, at least not in any way that would ever hold up. Because every XDF requires using the same program and there is really only 1 way to display most tables/switches it then comes down to how something is worded or phrased and again there are only so many ways to label something. Displaying a VE table for example only has 2 possible method's and it's simply changing the X/Y axis for how the information is displayed. The table reference ID's where started a long time ago and are mostly unified between every tuning company now and for good reason. To copyright something i needs to be a unique work and there really is no way to make an XDF unique. At best it's simply a matter of how complete an XDF is.

I can also see the value of creators distributing locked XDF's and they have no real negative impact on the community. If someone wanted to add to an existing XDF....AND they had plans to share what they were doing they can go on pretty much any forum and find someone knowledgeable to message asking where they can find an unlocked version or how they could contribute to adding additional information to an XDF. Now if they didn't plan on sharing what they wanted to do, then why should they even have access to the unlocked version in the first place? This aspect does apply to your thinking that anything done under a GPL should be reshared and if the person isn't willing to do that then they why should the work of others be given to them? The only reason for this would be that the person plans to profit off what someone else did or try and take credit for another person's work.

There is also a huge risk factor when someone wants to contribute or alter an XDF.....who's going to check and or validate what they did? Maybe they didn't know what they were doing and made bad edits that then get redistributed to hundreds of users. I have spent a lot of time over the last couple of years tracking down bad XDF's that most of the time where the result of someone editing another person's XDF where they screwed something up and then started sharing it. I have also seen a lot of XDF's where some some simply changed the creator's name and did nothing else to the XDF. Why would someone do that if their intentions were to help others?

My final point and my issue with GPL's is who's keeping people honest and who's going to enforce it? I have run into several people who do nothing more then cruise Github looking for things they can take, only slightly alter/reskin and then sell for a profit. A prime example is with Ls Droid for Windows and most of the moderators in my Ls Droid group can validate what I'm about to say. I initially planned to open source the program when it was done and I guess I just got lucky that it took me a lot longer to release the program then I had been expecting because some people got antsy and started contacting me directly asking for copies of the apps source code. I heard reasons that ranged from "I'd just like to see how the app works" to "I'd like to make some changes in it for personal use and I promise I won't share your source code". When I declined to share the source these people started contacting my moderators and tried all sorts of things hoping one of them would share copies of my source code....of course the moderators would immediately inform me someone was asking for source code and they seemed suspicious. Tazzi actually caught one of these guys who had been asking for source code selling a hacked version of another program on ebay.....so it's not an assumption there are people out there with malicious intentions.....it's already been proven and we've seen what their plans are. These are the same type of people who cry about locked XDF's because they can't easily alter them and make them appear to be their own. This was exactly what happened with Antus checksum dll, a person hacked it to remove his copyright and then started redistributing the dll as their own along with XDF's they also claimed as their own that were being included as part of a bundle with a program/tool being sold on eBay.
I was always curious as to how much if any source code lsdroid and pcmhammer have in common.
160plus
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Re: Mother of all 7603 XDF files

Post by 160plus »

persingc wrote:
Tazzi wrote:
NSFW wrote:What is it?
How much would you need to be paid to release it for free?
Crowdsourcing might work.
Its a mixture of their own custom R&D work from years of experience with ECUs, through usage of softwares such as winols and gm definition files to produce xml definitions for variety of Operating Systems on a variety of ecus.

Pricing is not an exact science for them. Depends on the time and work involved for them. Some things might already have premade def files, others may require hours/days of work to create thus their time must be compensated ect. Since we are only wanting to buy small amounts of data per operating system, this helps reduce their time needed, along with encourages payment (hopefully) from the Ad based system as time goes forward.

For the fact that these individuals don't post online about these things due to wanting to stay anonymous, along with wanting to avoid another giant commercial tuning company arising and charging huge amounts(Everyone feels the same), they don't want to see all the information posted freely to have the exact same thing occur. So releasing for free after the info has been paid back from ads (or crowd funding) then just results in losing these connections and no future OS's or ECU's will get support.

Basically there is a lot of trust being placed in us to do the right thing on both sides of the fence. Which is why I am open and upfront about the entire thing on both forum pages and social media.
Its not open source, but its at least going to maintain a free foundation for tuners which is the whole purpose of my initial proposal.
Absolutely zero of what you said sounds like legit A2l files are being purchased from the manufacturers being used to create a tuning app or definition. What it does sound like is somebody selling info out the back door of one of the major players or just plain ripping of others work. Neither of which sound above board like you previously claim. You aren't going to purchase part of a file that only has certain tables at least from the manufactures. Some person who feels under valued\appreciated at the major players probably.
There are a number of very legitimate ways to reverse engineer an OS without an A2L file and these methods are accepted and widely used for tuning with virtually all makes and modules....even the commercial tuning companies have to use alternative tools when things are very new.

Since you stated A2l's should be purchased directly from the manufacturer, please provide us all with a link and pricing to purchase these A2L's directly from GM since that will also answer NSFW's question regarding how much it would cost to make it open source.
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