Mother of all 7603 XDF files

They go by many names, P01, P59, VPW, '0411 etc. Also covering E38 and newer here.
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160plus
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Re: Mother of all 7603 XDF files

Post by 160plus »

persingc wrote:
160plus wrote:
NSFW wrote: (And yes I do think XDFs are copyrightable and therefore GPLable - kind of like how an orchestra can copyright a recording of performance, even if they have no rights to the underlying score.) Without GPL for XDFs, we just have the honor system to steer people toward contributing what they add on top.
I don't think this is possible, at least not in any way that would ever hold up. Because every XDF requires using the same program and there is really only 1 way to display most tables/switches it then comes down to how something is worded or phrased and again there are only so many ways to label something. Displaying a VE table for example only has 2 possible method's and it's simply changing the X/Y axis for how the information is displayed. The table reference ID's where started a long time ago and are mostly unified between every tuning company now and for good reason. To copyright something i needs to be a unique work and there really is no way to make an XDF unique. At best it's simply a matter of how complete an XDF is.

I can also see the value of creators distributing locked XDF's and they have no real negative impact on the community. If someone wanted to add to an existing XDF....AND they had plans to share what they were doing they can go on pretty much any forum and find someone knowledgeable to message asking where they can find an unlocked version or how they could contribute to adding additional information to an XDF. Now if they didn't plan on sharing what they wanted to do, then why should they even have access to the unlocked version in the first place? This aspect does apply to your thinking that anything done under a GPL should be reshared and if the person isn't willing to do that then they why should the work of others be given to them? The only reason for this would be that the person plans to profit off what someone else did or try and take credit for another person's work.

There is also a huge risk factor when someone wants to contribute or alter an XDF.....who's going to check and or validate what they did? Maybe they didn't know what they were doing and made bad edits that then get redistributed to hundreds of users. I have spent a lot of time over the last couple of years tracking down bad XDF's that most of the time where the result of someone editing another person's XDF where they screwed something up and then started sharing it. I have also seen a lot of XDF's where some some simply changed the creator's name and did nothing else to the XDF. Why would someone do that if their intentions were to help others?

My final point and my issue with GPL's is who's keeping people honest and who's going to enforce it? I have run into several people who do nothing more then cruise Github looking for things they can take, only slightly alter/reskin and then sell for a profit. A prime example is with Ls Droid for Windows and most of the moderators in my Ls Droid group can validate what I'm about to say. I initially planned to open source the program when it was done and I guess I just got lucky that it took me a lot longer to release the program then I had been expecting because some people got antsy and started contacting me directly asking for copies of the apps source code. I heard reasons that ranged from "I'd just like to see how the app works" to "I'd like to make some changes in it for personal use and I promise I won't share your source code". When I declined to share the source these people started contacting my moderators and tried all sorts of things hoping one of them would share copies of my source code....of course the moderators would immediately inform me someone was asking for source code and they seemed suspicious. Tazzi actually caught one of these guys who had been asking for source code selling a hacked version of another program on ebay.....so it's not an assumption there are people out there with malicious intentions.....it's already been proven and we've seen what their plans are. These are the same type of people who cry about locked XDF's because they can't easily alter them and make them appear to be their own. This was exactly what happened with Antus checksum dll, a person hacked it to remove his copyright and then started redistributing the dll as their own along with XDF's they also claimed as their own that were being included as part of a bundle with a program/tool being sold on eBay.
I was always curious as to how much if any source code lsdroid and pcmhammer have in common.
Absolutely nothing, they are not even written in the same language. The flash kernels are also not even remotely similar. As a matter of fact, Ls Droid developed and pioneered a number of new methods for things that even commercial tuning software companies have started adopting. I can see what you're insinuating and I hate to burst your bubble but your so far off base its not even funny.
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Re: Mother of all 7603 XDF files

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persingc wrote:Absolutely zero of what you said sounds like legit A2l files are being purchased from the manufacturers being used to create a tuning app or definition. What it does sound like is somebody selling info out the back door of one of the major players or just plain ripping of others work. Neither of which sound above board like you previously claim. You aren't going to purchase part of a file that only has certain tables at least from the manufactures. Some person who feels under valued\appreciated at the major players probably.
I thought A2L's were priceless and unavailable to the world since they were internal GM engineer documents. I too would love to see a link to GM's website for A2L's, you would then have a platform to share with the community the cost for it all. :thumbup:

I did write out a big response, but, realized I am trying to justify to someone that doesn't actually care, and is just making false accusations about a topic they do not actually understand. The fact you said any of that indicates you do not understand what an A2L is or what WinOLS is. Or how definitions can be generated through finding unique parameter IDs (That tend to be common or similar between ecus) to then generate a new baseline map to find in other operating systems, along with a variety of inspection/comparison methods.
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Re: Mother of all 7603 XDF files

Post by persingc »

Tazzi wrote:
persingc wrote:Absolutely zero of what you said sounds like legit A2l files are being purchased from the manufacturers being used to create a tuning app or definition. What it does sound like is somebody selling info out the back door of one of the major players or just plain ripping of others work. Neither of which sound above board like you previously claim. You aren't going to purchase part of a file that only has certain tables at least from the manufactures. Some person who feels under valued\appreciated at the major players probably.
I thought A2L's were priceless and unavailable to the world since they were internal GM engineer documents. I too would love to see a link to GM's website for A2L's, you would then have a platform to share with the community the cost for it all. :thumbup:

I did write out a big response, but, realized I am trying to justify to someone that doesn't actually care, and is just making false accusations about a topic they do not actually understand. The fact you said any of that indicates you do not understand what an A2L is or what WinOLS is. Or how definitions can be generated through finding unique parameter IDs (That tend to be common or similar between ecus) to then generate a new baseline map to find in other operating systems, along with a variety of inspection/comparison methods.
Oh well I guess you are out of the loop. Or one of you is lying. Or for all I know you are the same person talking out of both sides of your mouth.
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Re: Mother of all 7603 XDF files

Post by Tazzi »

persingc wrote: Oh well I guess you are out of the loop. Or one of you is lying. Or for all I know you are the same person talking out of both sides of your mouth.
I love how you have selected reading. Whats does my response say exactly there? BASED from A2Ls since those are what are used in applications such as WinOLS to generate XMLs for various operating systems. :roll:
Again, you clearly have still not looked up what winOLS.

You are more then welcome to CALL my number (In my signature, I am in Australia so beware of international carrier charges) to hear my voice and then go on a zoom meeting with Pete if wanting to see we are two different people. :lol:

As Pete has also stated, there are other methods to achieve without using A2Ls such as using parameters unique identifiers which can be common between ECUs, to then input into applications such as winols, then then make new defs for different operating systems. This is typically done on ECUs which do NOT have A2Ls available, thus previously found tables/identifies/parameters from other ECUs are used to identify in new unidentified ecus.

Before you go making your accusations, maybe try actually LOOK up what your talking about.
I mean, for all I know, you work at a commercial tuners and just trying to shut down an idea to provide free tuning to the community?
Actually.. that would make total sense... why your hell bent on PREVENTING a free solution that can continue to grow and support more ecus :?

I already know what your response will be: "Oh its not FREE if there is Ads..".
When you watch a youtube video, there is an ad. When you go on facebook, you see them ALL the time between posts, or in videos.
Yet, you still spent $0. It is free, other then using a small amount of your time. Which is less time then it took you to read this response! :lol:
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Re: Mother of all 7603 XDF files

Post by Tazzi »

persingc wrote:Version 9 is the latest stable build. All parameters with a "X0000" type name at the beginning have all been tested against commercial products.
You have admittedly just told commercial tuning companies that you have used their software to identify the locations of parameters/tables which is classified as reverse engineering, which is against their usage policy thus can be prosecuted for doing so :shock:
Whats even better, is you have left your full name in view through the above image for them to also identify you in the states, Well done Charles. :thumbup:

Just because THIS is your only method of making definitions by copying others, doesn't mean everyone does.
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Re: Mother of all 7603 XDF files

Post by persingc »

Tazzi wrote:
persingc wrote: Oh well I guess you are out of the loop. Or one of you is lying. Or for all I know you are the same person talking out of both sides of your mouth.
I love how you have selected reading. Whats does my response say exactly there? BASED from A2Ls since those are what are used in applications such as WinOLS to generate XMLs for various operating systems. :roll:
Again, you clearly have still not looked up what winOLS.

You are more then welcome to CALL my number (In my signature, I am in Australia so beware of international carrier charges) to hear my voice and then go on a zoom meeting with Pete if wanting to see we are two different people. :lol:

As Pete has also stated, there are other methods to achieve without using A2Ls such as using parameters unique identifiers which can be common between ECUs, to then input into applications such as winols, then then make new defs for different operating systems. This is typically done on ECUs which do NOT have A2Ls available, thus previously found tables/identifies/parameters from other ECUs are used to identify in new unidentified ecus.

Before you go making your accusations, maybe try actually LOOK up what your talking about.
I mean, for all I know, you work at a commercial tuners and just trying to shut down an idea to provide free tuning to the community?
Actually.. that would make total sense... why your hell bent on PREVENTING a free solution that can continue to grow and support more ecus :?

I already know what your response will be: "Oh its not FREE if there is Ads..".
When you watch a youtube video, there is an ad. When you go on facebook, you see them ALL the time between posts, or in videos.
Yet, you still spent $0. It is free, other then using a small amount of your time. Which is less time then it took you to read this response! :lol:
Oh well I guess you are out of the loop. Or one of you is lying. Or for all I know you are the same person talking out of both sides of your mouth.[/quote]

I love how you have selected reading. Whats does my response say exactly there? BASED from A2Ls since those are what are used in applications such as WinOLS to generate XMLs for various operating systems. :roll:
Again, you clearly have still not looked up what winOLS.

You are more then welcome to CALL my number (In my signature, I am in Australia so beware of international carrier charges) to hear my voice and then go on a zoom meeting with Pete if wanting to see we are two different people. :lol:

As Pete has also stated, there are other methods to achieve without using A2Ls such as using parameters unique identifiers which can be common between ECUs, to then input into applications such as winols, then then make new defs for different operating systems. This is typically done on ECUs which do NOT have A2Ls available, thus previously found tables/identifies/parameters from other ECUs are used to identify in new unidentified ecus.

Before you go making your accusations, maybe try actually LOOK up what your talking about.
I mean, for all I know, you work at a commercial tuners and just trying to shut down an idea to provide free tuning to the community?
Actually.. that would make total sense... why your hell bent on PREVENTING a free solution that can continue to grow and support more ecus :?[/quote]

Look honestly I'm tired of arguing with you. You are now just making ludacris claims and grasping at straws. I don't work for any company related to the automotive industry. Heck I've barely deleted vats from my project. You claim to only be affiliated with the hardware which you rarely have in stock, but are awfully involved in defending something you claim to not have any monetary gain from. I'm not preventing you from doing anything especially since you aren't involved. It's not selective reading it's calling out crap when it is presented. "Based from" now that's funny. I personally don't have a use for Winols as my swap is using a popular swap OS that honestly I got lucky and a lot of help on expanding and fixing the 7603.xdf. Well all I have left to say is I hope you invest everything you have in the ad based app you're not affiliated with and see why nobody else is doing that way.
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Re: Mother of all 7603 XDF files

Post by persingc »

Tazzi wrote:
persingc wrote:Version 9 is the latest stable build. All parameters with a "X0000" type name at the beginning have all been tested against commercial products.
You have admittedly just told commercial tuning companies that you have used their software to identify the locations of parameters/tables which is classified as reverse engineering, which is against their usage policy thus can be prosecuted for doing so :shock:
Whats even better, is you have left your full name in view through the above image for them to also identify you in the states, Well done Charles. :thumbup:

Just because THIS is your only method of making definitions by copying others, doesn't mean everyone does.
Yeah the couple hundred other parameters that the commercial guys don't included that I've added. Yeah I really needed their help with that....
persingc
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Re: Mother of all 7603 XDF files

Post by persingc »

[/quote]
I don't think this is possible, at least not in any way that would ever hold up. Because every XDF requires using the same program and there is really only 1 way to display most tables/switches it then comes down to how something is worded or phrased and again there are only so many ways to label something. Displaying a VE table for example only has 2 possible method's and it's simply changing the X/Y axis for how the information is displayed. The table reference ID's where started a long time ago and are mostly unified between every tuning company now and for good reason. To copyright something i needs to be a unique work and there really is no way to make an XDF unique. At best it's simply a matter of how complete an XDF is.

I can also see the value of creators distributing locked XDF's and they have no real negative impact on the community. If someone wanted to add to an existing XDF....AND they had plans to share what they were doing they can go on pretty much any forum and find someone knowledgeable to message asking where they can find an unlocked version or how they could contribute to adding additional information to an XDF. Now if they didn't plan on sharing what they wanted to do, then why should they even have access to the unlocked version in the first place? This aspect does apply to your thinking that anything done under a GPL should be reshared and if the person isn't willing to do that then they why should the work of others be given to them? The only reason for this would be that the person plans to profit off what someone else did or try and take credit for another person's work.

There is also a huge risk factor when someone wants to contribute or alter an XDF.....who's going to check and or validate what they did? Maybe they didn't know what they were doing and made bad edits that then get redistributed to hundreds of users. I have spent a lot of time over the last couple of years tracking down bad XDF's that most of the time where the result of someone editing another person's XDF where they screwed something up and then started sharing it. I have also seen a lot of XDF's where some some simply changed the creator's name and did nothing else to the XDF. Why would someone do that if their intentions were to help others?

My final point and my issue with GPL's is who's keeping people honest and who's going to enforce it? I have run into several people who do nothing more then cruise Github looking for things they can take, only slightly alter/reskin and then sell for a profit. A prime example is with Ls Droid for Windows and most of the moderators in my Ls Droid group can validate what I'm about to say. I initially planned to open source the program when it was done and I guess I just got lucky that it took me a lot longer to release the program then I had been expecting because some people got antsy and started contacting me directly asking for copies of the apps source code. I heard reasons that ranged from "I'd just like to see how the app works" to "I'd like to make some changes in it for personal use and I promise I won't share your source code". When I declined to share the source these people started contacting my moderators and tried all sorts of things hoping one of them would share copies of my source code....of course the moderators would immediately inform me someone was asking for source code and they seemed suspicious. Tazzi actually caught one of these guys who had been asking for source code selling a hacked version of another program on ebay.....so it's not an assumption there are people out there with malicious intentions.....it's already been proven and we've seen what their plans are. These are the same type of people who cry about locked XDF's because they can't easily alter them and make them appear to be their own. This was exactly what happened with Antus checksum dll, a person hacked it to remove his copyright and then started redistributing the dll as their own along with XDF's they also claimed as their own that were being included as part of a bundle with a program/tool being sold on eBay.[/quote]

I was always curious as to how much if any source code lsdroid and pcmhammer have in common.[/quote]

Absolutely nothing, they are not even written in the same language. The flash kernels are also not even remotely similar. As a matter of fact, Ls Droid developed and pioneered a number of new methods for things that even commercial tuning software companies have started adopting. I can see what you're insinuating and I hate to burst your bubble but your so far off base its not even funny.[/quote]

No serioualy that was an honest question. I really was unsure as I thought they advanced in about the same time, but wasn't sure if their was collaborative effort or not. I hope you made some money off of them copying you.
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Re: Mother of all 7603 XDF files

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persingc wrote: Well all I have left to say is I hope you invest everything you have in the ad based app you're not affiliated with and see why nobody else is doing that way.
Little bit of a confusing remark, I am affiliated to the Ad based app... its part of OBDX? But fine by me :thumbup:
I like thinking outside the box. It might work.. it might not? But... Id rather try then do nothing about it.
persingc wrote:Yeah the couple hundred other parameters that the commercial guys don't included that I've added. Yeah I really needed their help with that....
Which could have been pulled from any of the commercial products, or some other application, or someone elses work. I mean, you've openly admitted to doing it, so why would you attempt any other way :roll:
Some people like to invent... others like to copy.

Regardless, glad to hear you were able to do everything with the available XDFs. Not everyone is so lucky to be able to use a supported OS. :thumbup:
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Re: Mother of all 7603 XDF files

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persingc wrote:No serioualy that was an honest question. I really was unsure as I thought they advanced in about the same time, but wasn't sure if their was collaborative effort or not. I hope you made some money off of them copying you.
Pete doesn't make a dime from lsdroid. The fact the big boys are looking into such methods means his intuitive design is obviously a good idea, enough for them to mess with their own stuff again.
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