Coil near plug on V6 0411

They go by many names, P01, P59, VPW, '0411 etc. Also covering E38 and newer here.
V8fan
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Coil near plug on V6 0411

Post by V8fan »

Hi !
I'm looking how to migrate from distributor ignition to separate coils
And what I found didn't make me happy
0411 hasn't oem firmware to rule independent 6 coils and I didn't find any custom one
So I decided to route spark signal by sensors into distributor (some DIY electronics)
I already have coils from gen4 6.2l and what I found -spark ignites on rising edge of signal (0-5 V)
My V6 firmware cal. has dwell table and i dont understand why its relate from rpm on the left side of table and even on right (and what numbers meaning on top of table)
If i understand right - i should replace all numbers in table to equal -like 1.0 mSec (cause coil will spark on front of signal) to prevent spark advance change by dwell time
Right ?
Attachments
dwell 4.3.jpg
kur4o
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Re: Coil near plug on V6 0411

Post by kur4o »

Wrong. You charge the coil when the 5 volts is applied, when 5 volts are removed the coil fires.
It is peak and hold kind of charging.

That tables is rpm vs voltage. For individual coils dwell time is very improtant for good performance. Not sure how you will supply correct dwell since it needs to applied infront and accounted for spark advance. there is also other tables that modify the dwell time. Like temp vs volts dwell multiplier. Map and egr scalars, but not sure it is used on your application.
V8fan
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Re: Coil near plug on V6 0411

Post by V8fan »

kur4o wrote:Wrong. You charge the coil when the 5 volts is applied, when 5 volts are removed the coil fires.
It is peak and hold kind of charging.
.
Im an auto electrician ) And I know how dwell affects power of spark and how it works in classic ignition systems
But this coils confused me cuz they ignite without remove 5v from input
So better to copy/paste this table from 5.3 ls calibrations ?
V8fan
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Re: Coil near plug on V6 0411

Post by V8fan »

kur4o wrote: Not sure how you will supply correct dwell since it needs to applied infront and accounted for spark advance.
In my signal 'router' impulse from PCM will be directed to coil uncut -so dwell wont be harmed
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Gampy
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Re: Coil near plug on V6 0411

Post by Gampy »

V8fan wrote:Im an auto electrician ) And I know how dwell affects power of spark and how it works in classic ignition systems
But this coils confused me cuz they ignite without remove 5v from input
So better to copy/paste this table from 5.3 ls calibrations ?
I'm no Automotive Electrician, however I would have to take a guess that it's ground (earth) switched, thus 5v would remain on the input.
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kur4o
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Re: Coil near plug on V6 0411

Post by kur4o »

Unless you have the autofiring coils d585[with no dwell limiter], that is not possible.
Most coils you can charge them all day long until they melt, but they wont fire until you remove 5 volts.

If you use the v6 icm module to charge the coils and only sequence them, you will run at another issue at high rpms. To get optimal dwell you need to charge more than 1 coil at a time, so performance will definitely suffer.

The best way is to add cam sensor, and hack the os to use built in multicoil logic. There is a chance that you can run it without cam sensor but starting will be hit or miss. Or set a waste spark. Firing 2 coils at a time.

If you are ready for experiments, some info can be provided.
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Re: Coil near plug on V6 0411

Post by Charlescrown »

The only ignition system I know of that fires the plug on buildup is CDI where 400 or so volts is stored in a capacitor the dumped into the coil.
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Re: Coil near plug on V6 0411

Post by Cincinnatus »

I assumed ls coils were similar to cdi as they have power and ground 12v, but control separate 5v. I figured square wave signal controls firing event. I'm sure someone has scoped the control side and knows for sure.
V8fan
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Re: Coil near plug on V6 0411

Post by V8fan »

Gampy wrote:
V8fan wrote:Im an auto electrician ) And I know how dwell affects power of spark and how it works in classic ignition systems
But this coils confused me cuz they ignite without remove 5v from input
So better to copy/paste this table from 5.3 ls calibrations ?
I'm no Automotive Electrician, however I would have to take a guess that it's ground (earth) switched, thus 5v would remain on the input.
Im non native english speaker -sometimes I dont catch what u mean - sorry for that
For test I use 12 and 5 v separate sources (and common ground of course)
Actually I starting measure input resistance (its important for my schematic of routing) - and its 10kOhms and treshold voltage is 2.5V (above it coil inner logic starts accumulate charge)
But I found that after very short period of time (almost instantly) -coil fires spark (but i dont remove 5v from input)
So i decided that it sparks by front edge of 0-5V signal -my fault
V8fan
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Re: Coil near plug on V6 0411

Post by V8fan »

kur4o wrote:Unless you have the autofiring coils d585[with no dwell limiter], that is not possible.
Most coils you can charge them all day long until they melt, but they wont fire until you remove 5 volts.

If you use the v6 icm module to charge the coils and only sequence them, you will run at another issue at high rpms. To get optimal dwell you need to charge more than 1 coil at a time, so performance will definitely suffer.

The best way is to add cam sensor, and hack the os to use built in multicoil logic. There is a chance that you can run it without cam sensor but starting will be hit or miss. Or set a waste spark. Firing 2 coils at a time.

If you are ready for experiments, some info can be provided.
Vortec engines have cam sensor inside distributor -they run phased injecting and without cam sensor PCM cant determine where 1 cyl is
I dont know anybody who can hack firmware 0411 to use independent 6 coils - for this PCM only LS series with 24t reluctor has it
I read about to make 18t reluctor with LS calibrations -but not see any progress since
About dwell at high RPM
From 5.3 LS calibrations for 0411PCM I see that it should be 4.2 mS at 14V for gen3 stock coils -I dont know will it be right time for gen4 coils that I have
At 6k RPM it will be 100RPM/sec at flywheel and 50RPM/sec at cam
It give us 20mS to full turn and 3.33 mS to 1/6 turn between cyl sparks
If I set 3.0 dwell time for this 6k RPM and 4.2 for lower(and recalculate for higher to complete full table) -it wont be so harmful for spark power I think
I wont planning change shift points in my 4l60e -max RPM should not exceed 5k RPM
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