Base Injector Rate larger, causes RICH condition?

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JohnDee68
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Base Injector Rate larger, causes RICH condition?

Post by JohnDee68 »

Hi,
Keeping in mind I am still learning and trying to get my head around all this.

The Base Injector Rate is in msec/gram. Which is the time the injector takes to allow 1 gram of fuel through. It has been said that decreasing the Base Injector Rate value will result in a richer mixture (O2 sensors should be above 500mv stated as rich). So why then when I increase that value to the calculated (using the Kinjflow calculator) value using the injectors specifications, the car runs richer not leaner?

Can anyone explain if this is what it is meant to do or why this is the case please ?
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Re: Base Injector Rate larger, causes RICH condition?

Post by Charlescrown »

Don't know where you got that from. The injector flow rate is measured in grams/second which uses the so called kinjflow number. The bigger the number the more fuel. It's all part of a big mathematical equation.
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The1
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Re: Base Injector Rate larger, causes RICH condition?

Post by The1 »

Its a converted value, it's a factor of time for the injector to flow 1 gram of fuel. A Bigger injector will take less time to flow 1 gram than a smaller injector. The ecu wants to know how long it takes for the injector to flow 1 gram, it then converts this into pulse time.

msec/gram (milliseconds / gram) = Fuel Weight * cc / min of injector / 60 / 1000 which = grams per millisecond of fuel, then take 1 and / that by the result to get msec/gram.
JohnDee68
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Re: Base Injector Rate larger, causes RICH condition?

Post by JohnDee68 »

Thanks guys,
I am trying to wrap my head around this, I think I get it.

Charlescrown, I was going on the info from Yoda69 post on this forum that i had been directed to previously, viewtopic.php?f=7&t=894&p=10547&hilit=injector#p10547 that mentions the lower the number the more fuel.

The1, yes, I used the kinjflow excel sheet and got the value of around 550msec/gram for the injectors in my car (well three of the 6 anyway to be certain). So presuming the excel calculates that as per your formulae, it is telling me that the preset Base injector rate in the VX_V6_$BD_Enhanced (361.33msec/gram) is too low a value, making it run rich for the stock injectors on my VX. Am I correct in that understanding?

Where the value in the VX_V6_$BD_Enhanced (361.33msec/gram) value seems to have been calculated from injector specs gathered elsewhere at that time. With respect to The1, from a forum posted in Just Commodores, your values were likely used to determine the 361.33msec/gram in Tunerpro ? That isn't to say you were wrong as Bosch could have change their specs in the same injector part numbers after the initial version of injectors? I have viewed a site where the 0-280-155-777 injectors have been given a flow rate test and they also came closer or lower to the 150msec/gram.

Here are some of the variants I have seen, hence why I am trying to understand the Base Injector Rate and what it is actually changing in the cars injectors flow and mixture.

BOSCH-LBS/HR-CC/MIN-GRAMS-PSI-BAR-Resistance
0-280-155-777-14.25-149.8-107.7-43.5-3-x (Specs are from my vehicle service manual)
0-280-155-777-14.25-150.0-107.7-x-3.5-12 (Specs are from BOSCH tech info sheets themselves)
0-280-155-777-21.44-219.85-162-x-3.5-12 (Specs from post in Just Commodores by The1)
0-280-150-777-26.35-276.9-199.2-x-x-High (specs are from another spec sheet not by Bosch)

Any thoughts guys?
JohnDee68
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Re: Base Injector Rate larger, causes RICH condition?

Post by JohnDee68 »

Another thing while thinking of the Rich / Lean issues in what the Base Injector rate varying will result in.

While taking a log on the current setup with the Injector Base Rate at the increased value of 550 msec/gram (as calculated with the kinjflow formulae using the 149cc/min specs). Which we seem to be in agreement should be causing a leaner condition rather than a rich condition. The intermittent error codes returned are P0131 & P0151, which by the obd-II generic codes state a low voltage or short on the O2 sensor bank left hand side. Then I question as to why is the TunerPro O2 sensor readings displaying high voltages (closer to 1volt = Rich ) not low as the error codes state will cause the errors?

"P0151 is the OBD-II generic code indicating the O2 sensor for bank 2 sensor 1 fails to increase the voltage output above .21 volts, indicating excessive oxygen in the exhaust."

Something doesn't make sense?
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The1
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Re: Base Injector Rate larger, causes RICH condition?

Post by The1 »

Holden did use the same base injector rate between VS - VY. though the injectors flow different YES. I think it was lazy, because after VS they added the injector rate table, they just tuned that, instead of altering it then tuning it.
JohnDee68
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Re: Base Injector Rate larger, causes RICH condition?

Post by JohnDee68 »

Here is a snap shot of the log where the O2 sensors both are reading high, around the 800mv.
Attachments
O2 sensors rich.jpg
immortality
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Re: Base Injector Rate larger, causes RICH condition?

Post by immortality »

Ignore generic OBD2 codes as they don't apply to the V6 engines which still uses ALDL comms protocols.
immortality
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Re: Base Injector Rate larger, causes RICH condition?

Post by immortality »

JohnDee68 wrote:
BOSCH-LBS/HR-CC/MIN-GRAMS-PSI-BAR-Resistance
0-280-155-777-14.25-149.8-107.7-43.5-3-x (Specs are from my vehicle service manual)
0-280-155-777-14.25-150.0-107.7-x-3.5-12 (Specs are from BOSCH tech info sheets themselves)
0-280-155-777-21.44-219.85-162-x-3.5-12 (Specs from post in Just Commodores by The1)
0-280-150-777-26.35-276.9-199.2-x-x-High (specs are from another spec sheet not by Bosch)

Any thoughts guys?
Take not of the 4th number. Some are 43.5 psi or 3 bar, others are 3.5 bar. A higher fuel pressure will increase the flow rate of the injector. VT onwards uses a 3.5bar fuel pressure regulator, earlier models 3 bar/43.5 psi.
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Re: Base Injector Rate larger, causes RICH condition?

Post by delcowizzid »

If you have vx or vy injectors just leave it set where the team of engineers set it during the 10000 man hours of mapping the ecu. It shoud have light blue plastic body injectors part number 0280 155 777. If it has China copies bin them and find some old used genuine
If Its Got Gas Or Ass Count Me In.if it cant be fixed with a hammer you have an electrical problem
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