Base Injector Rate larger, causes RICH condition?

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JohnDee68
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Re: Base Injector Rate larger, causes RICH condition?

Post by JohnDee68 »

Sorry for the length guys.
immortality wrote:The thing is, you are using the injector flow rate to tune your idle when the reality is you are affecting every facet of the tune that used the base rate injector data.
Yes, as the economy was out at all speeds of driving, so a fuel base line was too rich from the readings coming back from TunerPro. Which is why I started at the injectors and the quantities they are putting in the cylinders at all rpm. Almost like a mixture screw on the old carby systems?
immortality wrote:You might be better off leaving the injector rate constant as it should be and figure out why the fuel usage has changed during certain conditions.
If I am correct the adjustment of the Injector Base Rate should show the imbalances of the injectors. Which in theory I believe has done that. Only a injector flow test will confirm injector failings or imbalances though, which I hope to get to do the test in the next week or so.
immortality wrote:By your own admission you suspect a injector issue, tuning around the issue doesn't solve it. The LTFT and STFT are telling you something is off, your best bet is finding that something and fixing it before you start changing the tune wholesale.
I agree, usually it would be the case, but I have ruled out what I believe to be likely other causes and this is a way I believe I can confirm injector failings or imbalance prior to spending what could be wasted money on new injectors if it isn't actually failing.
immortality wrote:Just remember, the tune was fine when you first had the car and you are trying to get back to that. 500,000km is a fair distance and I'm sure some of the bits and pieces on the engine might be tired and need sorting first.
That is just it, the tune was fine as new. It has only been causing issues since it was required to get a new ECU which I needed to flash with the TunerPro and the Enhanced version of Bin because of the original ECU failure. Without being able to recover the GMH original tune prior to using the Enhanced bin, I can't seem to be able to get back to where it was in the early years. Hey, what better way to learn than to know how it used to be, as to try and tune it to achieve the same it was back in the day. Without a dynotune of before (back in the day) and after. It is almost impossible to know the differences. But when I have driven all those (minus 42,000km) myself, I tend to be able to feel when the cars just not running to its ultimate as before, which is why i know something is a miss to it's health.
immortality wrote: 500,000km is a fair distance and I'm sure some of the bits and pieces on the engine might be tired and need sorting first.
I might not have been too clear with the distance. The car has done that, but it is now the third motor, with the current one being rebuilt by myself for certainty of it's condition. Though the sensors all are from my original motor. So the injectors of about 3 of the 6 would be close to the 510,000Km use. Of the top of my head, this current motor I have now put about 70,000km on it, the main part of that on E10 fuels.

I am learning obviously to try tune it.This is the first and so far only EFI I have tried tuning. So I can only go by similarities to the days of a carby, points system tunes. Where I would get the idle smooth which would be timing, idle speed and mixture correct. Then move on to slight adjustments so at rpm where it might need more pick up and go, usually timing adjustments or second jets timing. So I am trying to work on the same concept with EFI. Not sure if that is the right way though yet.
I have noticed today after drive testing. That the 0-80km/hr feels a lot more responsive than past few weeks, while maintaining a higher (better) driving manifold vacuum below the 80km/hr. Though I will need to fill the tank tomorrow to do a real fuel usage check. While keeping in mind I have done a bit of idling during tuning and driving harder than my usual, so the economy should allow for about 5% more drop anyway. My plan is that once I have the mixtures and performance correct (to my liking) for the 0-80km/h range, it should be easy to adjust the things like AFR and spark timings for the upper ranges above 80km/hr?

I do appreciate all those who are giving their time and help with my questions. I hope that I can one day pass on my experiences to others as you all do to me.
immortality
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Re: Base Injector Rate larger, causes RICH condition?

Post by immortality »

Download the Memcal ID tool and use it to find out what your original tune was. The tool has copies of most tunes. Then compare that to the enhanced tune and go from there.

The enhanced code is based of the original factory code so all the main maps should be correct, where possible The1 used HSV bins as the base so that may cause a variation.

Our Calais is now at 260,000km and has been on a new set of injectors for 100,000 km as well as new O2 sensors. Each fixed a little niggle.

Id also do a fuel pressure check, lots of extra fuel been removed may suggest a fuel pressure issue.
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Re: Base Injector Rate larger, causes RICH condition?

Post by Charlescrown »

I'm a little confused. Is this car a V6 or V8?
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Re: Base Injector Rate larger, causes RICH condition?

Post by delcowizzid »

If its that rich that it's pulling 30 percent out via the short term trims on the stock enhanced bin you have a mechanical issue dribbling injectors bad maf or maf in the wrong orientation in the pipe or a sensor malfunction or egr valve stuck open blocked cat etc. My vx is at 540000km and runs the base enhanced bin and it is on point plugs are allways clean so clean i havnt had them out in over 100000km. If you have 1 or more bad Injector causing rich o2 readings and you pull fuel the good ones will go stupid lean and melt shit
If Its Got Gas Or Ass Count Me In.if it cant be fixed with a hammer you have an electrical problem
Charlescrown
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Re: Base Injector Rate larger, causes RICH condition?

Post by Charlescrown »

Could a dribbling injector actually show up as a lean mixture on the O2? If the fuel droplets are too big to burn that also means less oxygen burnt.
JohnDee68
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Re: Base Injector Rate larger, causes RICH condition?

Post by JohnDee68 »

Charlescrown wrote:I'm a little confused. Is this car a V6 or V8?
I am referring to dealing with my V6 n/a factory stock vehicle.
JohnDee68
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Re: Base Injector Rate larger, causes RICH condition?

Post by JohnDee68 »

immortality wrote:Download the Memcal ID tool and use it to find out what your original tune was. The tool has copies of most tunes. Then compare that to the enhanced tune and go from there.
Not to my liking or might just be my understanding of the MemcalID software, but I couldn't see my PCM version listed there. So in previous forum discussions I am, with the advice and guidance from delcowizzid and quipt4it, using the downloaded VX_V6_$BD_Enhanced_v0.9e.zip and using the set of files from that zip folder.
immortality wrote:The enhanced code is based of the original factory code so all the main maps should be correct, where possible The1 used HSV bins as the base so that may cause a variation.

So there could be some variations to the Enhanced and to what would otherwise be my factory stock PCM settings. I understand that. I see some discrepancies or maybe just my misunderstanding of it all, when there are conflicting details that make the learning confusing at best. For example, I am advised by a few on this forum that the VX cant do Realtime tuning. Where in a document by The1, it states Realtime Tuning in TunerProRT is supported by using OSEPlugin for VS-VY Memcal based PCM's. So you can see my confusion.
immortality wrote:Our Calais is now at 260,000km and has been on a new set of injectors for 100,000 km as well as new O2 sensors. Each fixed a little niggle.
Yes, I can understand that each item does change a little. But initially I have noted up to 50% increases in fuel consumption. I believe I am dealing with tune issues and likely injector or two issues. Everything else isn't an issue and have been tested, checked, tested again to confirm their reliability (not injectors yet).
immortality wrote:Id also do a fuel pressure check, lots of extra fuel been removed may suggest a fuel pressure issue.
Done fuel pressure check, was spot on at 43-45psi. That is still with the original fuel rail and pressure valve.
JohnDee68
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Re: Base Injector Rate larger, causes RICH condition?

Post by JohnDee68 »

UPDATE of running results:

I uploaded my V51-V53 on the 7th Oct.
On the way last night to get needed fuel (my usual E10), I took note of the readings using the onboard L/Hr and noted these.
At IDLE it is doing around the 1.4 - 1.5 L/Hr. Where previously it was in the order of 1.9 - 2.2 L/Hr.
At 80km/hr (Cruise) it is doing around the 6.5 - 7.5L/Hr. Where previously it would have been up around the 10-12L/Hr.
At 110km/hr (Cruise) it is doing around the 7.5 - 8.5L/Hr. Where previously it would have been up and over the 12-15L/Hr.

I refilled the car last night with the usual E10. As expected, the fuel consumption for that tank of fuel would be about 10%-20% higher due to the many idle times and throttle use while working on the tuning. Which resulted in actual calculated economy of 12.88L/100Km).
I have now put another 170km on it since last nights fill. At this stage the fuel used from the tank says about 13Litres on the dash. Which calculating on those figures at this stage gives around 7.65L/100km. With the gauge not yet at the 3/4 full mark on fuel gauge either. Obviously the real check will be at the next fill up. But this is the closest I have had the cars economy back to what I consider reasonable for many years.
Once I do a next fill to confirm fuel economy is stable, I plan to take out the injectors, do a flow rate check on each and review the results. Depending on the injector results I am likely to buy a new set of injectors and then fine tune the car engine, before working on the tune of the trans to suit.
JohnDee68
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Re: Base Injector Rate larger, causes RICH condition?

Post by JohnDee68 »

Charlescrown wrote:Could a dribbling injector actually show up as a lean mixture on the O2? If the fuel droplets are too big to burn that also means less oxygen burnt.
I am not 100% sure as to the science in a fuel air combustion. I am presuming that when fuel ignites, it will use up only the amount of air sufficient to burn the fuel. So if there is an excess amount of air in a fuel air mix, then there will be a excess of air left after the fuel has burnt. Which when passing the O2 will show rich oxygen but actually a low voltage on the O2 sensor, referring to a Lean condition of fuel in that specific ignition cycle? The reverse would be the case if there is too much fuel in the mix, that there would be all air used and more fuel left to be burnt, causing a low oxygen level at the O2 sensor, giving a high voltage reading and therefore would be a rich fuel condition.

Based if I am correct there in that logic, then as I suspect I may have 1 or 2 injectors which are likely flowing too much fuel through them causing a rich condition on 1 or 2 of the left hand side of the engine and the PCM is struggling to balance the results it is getting back from the O2 sensors. Which would explain why the engine at <900rpm seems rough but not any issue at any other rpm.
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Re: Base Injector Rate larger, causes RICH condition?

Post by Charlescrown »

So now at 110 your using almost half the volume of fuel from a tweak of the tune.
Too much fuel is a very different thing to a poor spray pattern. If you see a low O2 output and a high HC reading on a gas analyser that confirms the fuel is not burning.
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