1227165 Running 12P for a GM 2.5L Iron Duke with Turbo

American GM ECUs and PCMs
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Re: 1227165 Running 12P for a GM 2.5L Iron Duke with Turbo

Postby Mark_ZZ3 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:55 pm

Holden202T wrote:post your bin and I can have a look....

also how do you have the relay wired up to the flex output ?


I use A2 as the connection (ground) to the relay. This was the EGR solenoid in the truck ... so easy to reuse the wiring. The relay is a stock volvo part specific for the boost control.

Mark.

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Re: 1227165 Running 12P for a GM 2.5L Iron Duke with Turbo

Postby Holden202T » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:55 pm

Ok I've updated for flex b setup with RPM v's MAP axis and its whatever settings you already had in your tune in the flex b table.

this is how I set it.

alex - flex1.jpg
alex - flex1.jpg (81.23 KiB) Viewed 1217 times

alex - flex.jpg
alex - flex.jpg (331.81 KiB) Viewed 1217 times

So as you can see, the relay should turn on at 3023rpm and over 150kpa ... obviously you can change the table values to suit the map and rpm you want for no/off points.

I've also attached the modified bin file, and xdf file to suit.

Alex - $12P - Flex b.XDF
(377.14 KiB) Downloaded 47 times

Alex 12P 2 Bar 1.0-flexb.bin
(32 KiB) Downloaded 43 times

just for your knowledge, you need to load your cal/bin file in the flex table editor, then select the flex a/b/c/d etc then change all the settings to suit what you want, then from there you can

1. save the cal/bin file (this then needs to be uploaded to the computer to take effect)
2. modify the XDF which will give you the correct axis info and update the table name with what axis type (rpm/map/cts/tps etc)

make sure once you have done this you use that xdf to edit, and also make sure you use that bin file to load when you make changes, if you go back to an earlier bin file you will overite all the settings.

As i understand it the reason the flex table editor is in the ose flash tool and not part of tunerpro is that it needs a lot of special selections and coding to make it work which just isn't possible to do in tunerpro tables/flags etc. normally in tunerpro XDF the table settings are something that is hard coded and doersn't ever change once its been setup, so to allow all the axis changes needed in the flex tables that was the answer.

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Re: 1227165 Running 12P for a GM 2.5L Iron Duke with Turbo

Postby Mark_ZZ3 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:52 pm

Ok. Thank you.

I will give this a try.

I thought I did it that way, but I must have missed a step, or picked something out of sequence.

Mark.

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Re: 1227165 Running 12P for a GM 2.5L Iron Duke with Turbo

Postby Mark_ZZ3 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:34 am

Well we are back at it ... time to get it up and running.

So here is what has changed. My son made up a nifty adapter to mount the TBI from a 4.3/5.7 engine on to the little old 2.5L. This will give us TWO injectors vs. the single one found on the 2.5L. The adapter plate is a simple 1.5" thick aluminum block with one 48mm hole (or so) on one side and twin 30-something on the other side, and a blend connecting them. Since this adapter is effectively a "restrictor" plate, no worries about the BIG TBI unit adding too much air. Self limiting.

So fast forward. It's mounted on the engine. All sensors connected. Cables attached. With some INJ flow tuning, I can get it to fire up and run, but it stalls almost right away. No amount of throttle will keep it going.

I figured it was too right or too lean ... tried setting the injector flow up and down. No luck.

Got it run with ONE injector connected. Hmm ... thought it was the fuel setting. Then we noticed if we connected the second injector up while it was running, the engine would die.

I tired the same thing with a spare injector (not connected to any fuel), and it does the same thing. I can feel it "clicking", but as soon as it is connected, the one that is running the engine drops down to a poor spray pattern.

It's like the computer can't run the TBI injectors? Is that the case?

I ran a dedicated 12V to the injectors. No luck. It's on the ECM side. I verified the wiring is correct. D15/D16. Doesn't matter which is connected or not, same result.

What should I have done to run TBI style injectors? Different driver to power them?

Mark.

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Re: 1227165 Running 12P for a GM 2.5L Iron Duke with Turbo

Postby Mark_ZZ3 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:12 pm

hmm. So more testing. Runs fine with one injector plugged into D15 or D16. Either or, no matter. As soon as the second one is plugged in, the spray pattern goes bad and the engine stalls. You can feel the injectors clicking, but maybe not opening up completely or long enough. I tried to trick it by setting the flow rate way down. No luck.

I measured the resistance ... 3.5 ohms per injector. Seems ok with others I tested. Now the 165 computer can run a TBI with a single injector (stock 2.5L) or the TPI setup with banks of 4 injectors. The 4 injectors are each 15 ohm or so, so in parallel they are about 3 ohms. All seems fine.

I tried to run both TBI injectors from D16 (crazy idea). Same result.

Feels like the ECM can't power both. I've run dedicated +12.

I'm stumped.

More research.

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Re: 1227165 Running 12P for a GM 2.5L Iron Duke with Turbo

Postby Mark_ZZ3 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:16 pm

Hmm. So some research. I'm using peak and hold injectors. Seems that they draw lots of current (hence peak and hold ... at a lower current). Only one injector per driver ... which is what I am seeing. Now the D15/D16 split should be two drivers, but they are not acting like that. Some suggestions are that D3 needs to be shorted to D9 in order to trigger the sense function for D15 to operate as a peak and hold. Wish I had a diagram to read instead of google.

Other options are to have an external driver for the injectors ... yuk.

More research.

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Re: 1227165 Running 12P for a GM 2.5L Iron Duke with Turbo

Postby Mark_ZZ3 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:03 pm

Hilly Billy Garage ...

So the TBI injector is 2.5 ohms. The bank of injectors on a TPI is 4 X 15 ohm or about 3.75 ohms in parallel. Seeing as the injector driver can't handle the load of the TBI injectors, I tried some re-wiring to provide another ground. No change. It's late ... so one more change ... I added a 1 ohm resistor on the positive side of the injectors. TA DA ... they both fire now. Pattern is ok.

... and the engine finally rev's up nice. I wonder how well the heat will be with the 1 ohm resistor ... need to get one rated for a bit of amps.

I suspect I need to tweak my resistor setting to make it work (and last). Guess I'll be carrying around another '165 computer just in case.

Mark.

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Re: 1227165 Running 12P for a GM 2.5L Iron Duke with Turbo

Postby Mark_ZZ3 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:43 am

Well it's been a while since I posted. Here is an update.

The fueling portion of this project has been the largest challenge. Trying to add fuel under boost with the stock system has limited results. But we sort of knew that was coming. It was fun to see how far we could stretch it.

Now the TBI low impedance injectors continue to be a challenge to run with the 1277165 computer. With only two injector drivers it seems like it struggles. The original GM TBI computers used 4 injector drivers, 2 for each injector. I've been able to run the 3.5-4 ohm TBI injectors by adding a resistor to simulate the resistance load of a bank of injectors. Now you can laugh, but a dash light reostat works perfect. It goes from 0 to a few ohms, and has a heat sink. Anyways it allowed some adjustment to get it dialed in.

The 12P code seems to work nice. The VE tables is where we have spent lots of time. Run TWO injectors has made for a funny table, but quoting an older Grumpy guy ... give an engine what it wants. The challenge is boost as we are only seeing about 5 PSI now. But if you think about it ... with a stock TBI fuel system running 13-15PSI ... once you get into boost, then fuel will be limited. But we always knew that. Ive got a high pressure inline pump on the shelf and a higher pressure TBI setup (30PSI).

For those who ask ... "Why" ... well it's like this. We had an iron duke 2.5 with a 1277165. The 12P code was too inviting not to try out. No wiring changes. AND it supported boost. So really with just some code ... we are running a boosted Iron Duke with stock components. And with only 4-5 PSI boost, it actually is quite surprizing to drive ... if not like a modern car.

Well ... that's where this project is. I spent months re-programming a couple of 1277165 TPI setups with huge aftermarket intakes. Only stock GM code, but all VE table work. I wondered about running 12P code on them ... no Mass Air Flow sensors in my way. Another day maybe.


The one challenge I am having is with TunerproRT. It connects and logs data just fine. The emulate feature does not work properly with Craig Moates APU setup. I can load up the 12P code using his emulator, and the engine runs fine. But I can't log. And if I use the 12P emulator then it just doesn't allow me to make changes. Feels like a comm port issue, or maybe the emulate function needs a dedicated piece of hardware. dunno.


All for now.
Mark.

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Re: 1227165 Running 12P for a GM 2.5L Iron Duke with Turbo

Postby antus » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:59 am

Ive heard this before and never gotten to the bottom of it. So you have one usb link to the APU and a seperate one to a comms mod? Or how exactly is the comms hooked up?
Have you read the FAQ? For lots of information and links to significant threads see here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1396

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Re: 1227165 Running 12P for a GM 2.5L Iron Duke with Turbo

Postby Mark_ZZ3 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:28 am

antus wrote:Ive heard this before and never gotten to the bottom of it. So you have one usb link to the APU and a seperate one to a comms mod? Or how exactly is the comms hooked up?


I have the APU1 (craig Moates progammer) connected via USB. TunerproRT has the OSE Plugin 2.03 for both the Data Acquisition and Emulation. The data logging works fine - turn key on, then fire up Tunerpro and it will log data just dandy. The emulator almost works. I can't upload any data without it errorring out. When I turn on emulation, it looks like it is working, but I can't change values.

So ... I use Craig Moates Tunerpro emulator function and it works fine, but I can't data log. So I can only watch the wideband. Make for slow tuning.

Mark.

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