VT V8 304 MAF NVRAM -> VS V8 MAP NVRAM + M122 SC Conversion

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VT V8 304 MAF NVRAM -> VS V8 MAP NVRAM + M122 SC Conversion

Postby JA2Z » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:04 pm

Hi all,

I have a 1998 VT 304 Calais which a little while ago I bought NVRAM hardware for and have been logging and slightly tweaking various parameters with TunerPro RT to learn about the Software and tuning parameters. :study:

I have been using The1's Enhanced Bin, XDF & ADX files for the VT V8 5L Auto which have been great. :punk:

I have been observing how Spark map adjustments and AFR target tables affect the motor's performance, and tweaking the auto's shift parameters/pressures has been educational and productive. :driving:


All has been going well, but I really want to move into mapping VE tables as I have an Eaton M122 Blower to go on this motor and I believe the current factory TB and MAF arent going to cut it once the blower is on.

The vehicle is nowoff the road and I have time to really play with this motor and trans. I will be building a roller Dyno (no hydraulics as yet, just for safe "Off-the-road" roller tuning)

After I have the Motor and Trans really banging, I may engine swap them into a much more interesting body... but we'll see.


I am milling the intake to house the M122 and will also find suitable Seimens Deka Injectors (maybe 60 or 80lb) to suit the 7-10psi I will be running the Eaton at.

I have looked at Conversion questions (MAF->MAP) and it seems people advise going to a VS/VR V8 304 PCM (ECU) and loom (or rather adapter cable I will build from VT PCM->VS PCM) to gain VE table mapping. or maybe the far more complicated LS1 PCM conversion?



So my Questions and requests are:

1) What model VS PCM should I be getting? BZMT, CKUN, BWFU, etc...?

2) What are the Correct pins for said VS PCM to hookup Wideband O2?

3) Please can someone provide the correct Pinout for VT 304 AUTO CALAIS (MAF & Climate control) & VS 304 AUTO (MAP) so I can build a proper adaptor/Loom with Wideband support? - (I have scoured google but can only find a ton of variants other than the ones I want)

4) Can I use my current NVRAM chip with an updated Bin to suit the new VS PCM, or are they different?

5) What Bin, XDF & ADX files should I use for 2Bar VS V8 304 Auto with wideband logging?

6) Do you want me to do a full Photo/Video writeup as I complete the build?

7) Please advise any things you think I may have missed.

Thank you in advance for help and advice. :thumbup:

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Re: VT V8 304 MAF NVRAM -> VS V8 MAP NVRAM + M122 SC Convers

Postby Dazza92VP » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:20 pm

1. Doesn't really matter what memcal code you use as by the sounds of it you will be using an nvram. But any Vr v6 or v8 or vs v8 424 Ecu will do and run ose$11p

2. If using a 424 and ose$11p pin d8 is wideband input

4. You won't be able to use the nvram fro you ecu in the older ecu as its a different setup and pin type and the bins are different you will have to start again anyway as your putting a blower on it and sounds like you changing a couple of other things as well

5. Use ose$11p found in the custom code section the file will have all the bins xdfs and adx files you need

6. Yes please always good to see new projects coming along

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Re: VT V8 304 MAF NVRAM -> VS V8 MAP NVRAM + M122 SC Convers

Postby MAGP » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:35 pm

JA2Z wrote:1) What model VS PCM should I be getting? BZMT, CKUN, BWFU, etc...?
The code you have quoted are different memcal codes. The VS PCM is a 424 (its has the electronics for the 4L60e transmission). A VS ECM (used with manual gearboxes) is the 305. Having said all that I wouldn't change back to the VS configuration, I'd stay with the VT stuff. I'll explain further in 7.

JA2Z wrote:4) Can I use my current NVRAM chip with an updated Bin to suit the new VS PCM, or are they different?
Completely different

JA2Z wrote:5) What Bin, XDF & ADX files should I use for 2Bar VS V8 304 Auto with wideband logging?
As I said in reply to 1 I wouldn't go this way but I'll explain why below in reply to 7

JA2Z wrote:6) Do you want me to do a full Photo/Video writeup as I complete the build?
Yes please :thumbup:

JA2Z wrote:7) Please advise any things you think I may have missed.
MAP is great, and for a very long time people swapped to MAPs at the drop of a hat when boosting their engine but I don't think there is a need to do that anymore. Keep the VT computer, the NVRAM etc you already have and use them. Fit your blower and larger injectors but also fit an LS MAF (they provide a huge amount of adjustment). Doing it this way all you will need to change is the MAF. No need for new wiring loom or repining the current one just make, or purchase, an adapter loom to fit the new MAF.

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Re: VT V8 304 MAF NVRAM -> VS V8 MAP NVRAM + M122 SC Convers

Postby JA2Z » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:14 pm

Excellent!

Thank you both for the replies,

Good info Dazza, I have all OSE$11p files now and will order hardware for a VR/VS V8 PCM

MAGP, I really do want to get into VE mapping, as all the motec stuff my old man did with his race bikes was MAP based tuning... So we will have fun working on this together... and I don't think I've ever seen a race setup that uses MAF... not only some limiting factors with airfow and maintenience, but also latency if I run a front mount IC, the MAF isn't good at understanding plenum air density changes which all happens with FI setups.

So For now... I'll order the new NVRAM, PCM, Loom, 2-Bar MAP & Wideband

I will upload photos of the build as I go

IMG_1934.JPG
Eaton M122 Supercharger to go onto the motor

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Re: VT V8 304 MAF NVRAM -> VS V8 MAP NVRAM + M122 SC Convers

Postby JA2Z » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:24 pm

So... The two responses to my original questions got me thinking....


Which is better? MAP or MAF

I know MAP will perform in certain ways, and MAF in others, but which is superior?

I believe MAP will handle the boost better because it is reading data on the Blower output side of the Motor as MAP enters the ports, where as the MAF will be prior to the TB.

For e.g:

A) If the TB snaps shut, M-anifold A-ir F-low (pre TB) will rapidly decrease and advise the injectors to stop fueling, which will be hazardous for all the remaining excess boost pressure between the TB and the motor :oops:

B) However MAP tuning is effiency based, and any mod I do to the motor is going to require a full VE remap.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will start documenting everything and I will build a Dual PCM-MAF / ECU-MAP Setup

1) I have purchased an LS1 Delphi MAF to allow for Boost tuning
2) I have purchased the Innovate Wideband coming
3) Mill and Setup the M122 and 80lb Deka Injectors onto the Intake
4) Purchase & Install 2-Bar MSD MAP Sensor
5) Purchase VR/VS V8 ECU, NVRAM and a VR/VS V8 memcal (as I will want the knock sensor functionality enabled by the memcal)
6) I will wire in a piggy-back for a VR/VS MAP based ECU
7) Wire in WB-O2 & MAP

Let me know your thoughts

:D

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Re: VT V8 304 MAF NVRAM -> VS V8 MAP NVRAM + M122 SC Convers

Postby JA2Z » Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:35 pm

Ok, So the LS MAF arrived:

- 1-Bar MAP is coming
- VS V8 ECU is coming
- VS V8 Loom is coming
- 102mm TB is coming
- LS 5-pin MAF and 3-Pin MAP connectors are coming,
- MTX-L Wideband still coming

I'll Setup the Motor N/A first with the ECU/PCM changable, and get it all functional and running with the Wideband and MAP pinned into both ECU/PCMs

Then I'll change to 2-BAR MAP & LS MAF & install the M122 Blower & Seimens Injectors when I can afford to buy them.

And from there re-tweak the VE and MAF AFR tables.

I'll post results and progress as it goes.

Theoretically both systems will deliver the same Maximum HP numbers because Power is a function of Fuel & Air burnt, so HP figures wont reveal anything about the comparison, however comparing Airflow restriction and tuneability & useability of the power will be a different story.

Below is the Difference in the Standard VT V8 MAF vs the LS 5-pin Delphi MAF I ordered.

MAF_Compare.jpg


Not only are the diameters very different, but the Delphi should read much more airflow, allowing for Boost readings above atmosphere pressure.

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Re: VT V8 304 MAF NVRAM -> VS V8 MAP NVRAM + M122 SC Convers

Postby MAGP » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:13 pm

The MAF goes before the s/c so it should never read "boost readings above atmospheric pressure". A MAF simply reads airflow, in other words it tells the PCM how much air is flowing into the engine. It does this by powering a reference wire in the MAF so that it heats up to a certain temperature (don't ask me what temp it is cause I don't know I just know how they work) the airflow is calculated by how much power is used to keep the reference wire at the temperature it is supposed to be at. More airflow means the wire gets cooled so more power is required to keep it up to temp, less airflow means the wire gets warmer so less power is required to keep it at temp. This is all then used along with either MAT (Manifold Air Temp) or IAT (Intake Air Temp) by the PCM to calculate real air flow into the engine.

A MAP reads "pressure" (either positive or negative, in other words boost or vacuum) and the PCM/ECM then calculates airflow based on various laws of physics. The higher the pressure the more usable air the lower the pressure the less usable air. As with the MAF the PCM uses other information either from a MAT or IAT to calculate how much air is flowing into the engine.

Now some people prefer MAP while others prefer MAF, I prefer what the car come with. MAF are, simply because they actually measure airflow rather than air pressure, more accurate. Some people say a MAF is a restriction which in some cases is true but it doesn't have to be. An engine that can only consume 500cfm of air that has a MAF that flows 500 cfm is not going to be restricted by the MAF. There are some cars that have both MAP and MAF (Mitsubishi Evos I think) and some aftermarket solutions that enable the user to fit a MAP to a MAF vehicle while keeping the MAF and using both to tune (I think HP Tuners provides this option on some engines).

So what you need to remember when swapping from 1 to the other is a MAP will read pressure and calculate potential airflow based on laws of physics. A MAF reads actual airflow. Everything else being equal if you are producing boost on the engine side of the s/c you will be creating higher airflow on the MAF side of the blower than you would if you didn't have a blower fitted and you weren't producing boost.

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Re: VT V8 304 MAF NVRAM -> VS V8 MAP NVRAM + M122 SC Convers

Postby JA2Z » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:11 pm

Thanks MAGP,

I know all of that, I was simply saying the LS MAF will be able to provide airflow readings that a boosted engine will consume, the standard MAF will not read enough airflow for this boosted application, hence the upgrade.


I disagree that MAF's are "More Accurate", any debris/oil/contaminants that lines the filament wire can put the calibration way off. What about moisture in the air, yes the IAT will read lower readings due to the temp drop, and assume higher air density, but the MAF will be dramatically more affected be the evaporative effect of the water evaporating off and cooling the filament. Or what if I'm venting excessive boost, like on any turbo application.... the MAF is screwed because the measured air flow is not even being used.

I won't be running a boost controller on a SC system, (would be stupid) but there are other factors, what about a inlet manifold leak, a boost leak around an injector or something? the MAF will be out again, I don't know of any aftermarket ECUs that uses MAF as it's baseline? there may be some plugin versions, but every stand alone ECU I know is MAP based.

That's the point of this thread. I'm testing both on the same motor to see the differences first hand, not just through theory and hearsay.


Once everything arrives I'll setup the two systems,

Then buy the Injectors and start the SC build

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Re: VT V8 304 MAF NVRAM -> VS V8 MAP NVRAM + M122 SC Convers

Postby MAGP » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:46 am

JA2Z wrote:I know all of that, I was simply saying the LS MAF will be able to provide airflow readings that a boosted engine will consume, the standard MAF will not read enough airflow for this boosted application, hence the upgrade.
Then please consider the above post information for people who don't know.

JA2Z wrote:I disagree that MAF's are "More Accurate", any debris/oil/contaminants that lines the filament wire can put the calibration way off.
In an enclosed intake system there shouldn't be any of these things unless of course the person has fitted an air filter that is oil coated which people who know should know not to do. Also a MAP sensor can be affected as well.

JA2Z wrote:What about moisture in the air, yes the IAT will read lower readings due to the temp drop, and assume higher air density, but the MAF will be dramatically more affected be the evaporative effect of the water evaporating off and cooling the filament.
Moisture in air != cooler air nor does it = denser air.

JA2Z wrote:Or what if I'm venting excessive boost, like on any turbo application.... the MAF is screwed because the measured air flow is not even being used.
We aren't talking about a turbo application though are we?

JA2Z wrote:what about a inlet manifold leak, a boost leak around an injector or something? the MAF will be out again
If you have an inlet manifold leak the MAP will be affected, if you have a leak around an injector or something the MAP will be affected, all modern EFI systems are closed systems and any leak or venting of measured airflow or measured pressure will cause an inaccuracy.

JA2Z wrote:I don't know of any aftermarket ECUs that uses MAF as it's baseline? there may be some plugin versions, but every stand alone ECU I know is MAP based.
MS3Pro Ultimate, it is standalone and if you want you can use a MAF.

With regards to "baseline" OEM spends billions and is forced, through legislation and public opinion (just ask Volkswagon), to be as accurate as possible. Aftermarket spends millions and says "for off road use" so it is up to the owner, not the aftermarket manufacturer, to show their car is running as it should. There is a reason why OEMs have gone MAF rather than MAP and that reason is accuracy.

JA2Z wrote:That's the point of this thread. I'm testing both on the same motor to see the differences first hand, not just through theory and hearsay.
MY apology I thought when you said
JA2Z wrote:7) Please advise any things you think I may have missed.

Thank you in advance for help and advice. :thumbup:
you were inviting unbiased comment. I'm not here to argue with you I'm here to provide things for you to consider. If it wasn't for my initial post you wouldn't even be considering using a MAF so I have got you thinking. I look forward to your build, testing, and results.

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Re: VT V8 304 MAF NVRAM -> VS V8 MAP NVRAM + M122 SC Convers

Postby JA2Z » Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:39 pm

ECU and Connectors arrived today
IMG_2135[1].JPG

IMG_2132[1].JPG


Now to wait for the Loom and other bits

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