FX Holden Race Car Project

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Re: FX Holden Race Car Project

Postby Gareth » Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:18 pm

Have you looked at the king spring catalogue? as that spring is a king spring in the pic
According to chemistry, alcohol is a solution...

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Re: FX Holden Race Car Project

Postby Holden202T » Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:00 pm

hahaha no its viking :)

i did look at kings catalogue, but it basically tells you what you need for model xx car, doesn't have any info on dimensions of the actual spring .....

that said i have found QA1 - 8MB375 and Afco - A8SR375 which are 8 inch, 375lb springs, it appears these are a mustang conversion part, slightly higher poundage than the ones i have (350lb) but 1 inch shorter ..... so if viking don't come back with any better options these might be worth a look.

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Re: FX Holden Race Car Project

Postby Holden202T » Tue May 24, 2022 2:38 pm

Thought i should post up a bit of an update on where im at as far as post racing changes/improvements etc

First thing i wanted to do was to add a vent from the sump to the catch can, as i was getting a bit of oil out the dipstick tube, this was probably partially as the seal on them is not real flash but also possibly because there is no way for the pressure to get out other than up the oil return passages and back to the tappet cover, so i got an alloy fuel pump blank off plate and a speedflow fitting and blew the cobwebs off the tig (this is the second real job for the tig since i bought it!)

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Not the best weld but it will hold!

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So this was the one i was worried about welding, its not the thickest alloy and i didnt want it to cave in on me, anyways it worked ok once i got some heat into it.

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All installed and ready to roll, thankfully i had a bit of the clear hose left over because i always like to buy more than i need!

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Next on the list was to add a few sensors to the engine, primarily engine oil pressure, and i also added trans temp just because the new pan had a second bung in it! So i got a speedflow T piece and got it all plumbed up, the sensor on the end is an alloytec oil pressure sensor, and the plug is the same as a TPS plug so all stuff i had laying around, the big bulb sensor is the dash gauge and the braided line is the oil feed to the turbo.
It then just needed a metric to imperial adaptor for the alloytec sensor.

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Started on installing the data logger and running wiring to the sensors etc.

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This is a quick log i did of it, you can see the bottom monitor with trans temp and engine oil pressure - very interested to see what that shows me!

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i've also been trying to find a suitable solution for my coilover front shocks not having any adjustment, so far the only real answer i have is i can get the spring re-set and this might be the answer, but i also feel they are too stiff to begin with so would really love to find a softer alternative, but this is a nice to have thing, so not too stressed if nothing happens in this area for a while.

I have tossed up the idea of making a collar to sit on the coilover adjuster, then cause a wider spring, but this would mean i need a 6 inch long spring .... so starting to get pretty short, as it sits now i have an 8 inch long 375lb spring, and the front is very stiff!

who would have thought i'd have an issue of the front of the car being too light ?!?! anyways i will work something out one day!

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Re: FX Holden Race Car Project

Postby Holden202T » Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:32 am

Where do i start ..... got a new tow rig, 2014 VF SV6 Wagon, got the tow bar and brake controller fitted 1 week before gunnedah! Other than some un-usual rear tyre wear the car tows great and has plenty of power!

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So we got to gunnedah friday arvo, managed to avoid 90% of the rain! Dad ordered a V6 Conversions front end, and as my brother works near moree, he collected it and met up with us there to deliver it, so we put it in the middle of the cabin for the weekend, was a good centre piece for conversations and pondering!

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So Saturday morning racing was a bit slow, due to rain at 5am, then no sun to help dry the track, they spent hours with leaf blowers and brooms to make it happen for us! Anyways once we got going i had a few issues with data logs, not sure what happened to the first log, it looked like it was logging but no file, anyways the car went ok, bit of wheel spin but clicked off a 7.4 to start the day.

The below video is of my second run, did a bigger burnout and went 7.0, pretty on par with where it should have been from last time and boost levels etc.



So i go out for my third run, did a nice big burnout, and right at the end of it, dropped a cylinder and engine was vibrating badly, so i backed off the start line, thankfully the small hole in the sump hadn't yet leaked anything onto the track!

But at that point when i looked under the car it was fairly clear it had thrown a rod!

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So i realised after the radiator top tank was cold that it was enpty, so i wanted to drain the sump to make sure there was no water in there rusting up things. So i went and bought a 10ltr jerry can and used that to drain 10ltrs of mayo out of the sump!

Got home and got the motor out and assessed the damage! Looks like lack of oil has caused it to spin a bearing and the rest is history!

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You can see here either side of the rod its smacked the crank pretty hard and left some nice dints in the piston and cracks on the gudgeon pin area.

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Clearly this is where the water came from :wtf:

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It looks like number 6 bearing wasn't far off following number 1 !!

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So i knew i needed to do some washing before everything started to rust! The lifters were a pain in the ass to pull apart and clean, but at $300 a set i didnt want to have to pay that twice!

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Should be ready to drop in when the next engine is ready to go!

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I've been doing some research on oil system mods for these things, so i will be drilling out some oil passages to be a bit larger and as well as that one common mod is to put a screw in the end of the oil pump to allow increasing the relief valve pressure which is hopefully all i'll need to do.

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So i started doing what i could, machined the face of the bolt flat and drilled a small hole in it, next will be to tap it out.

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This hole is basically the same size as the locating dowel that was on the end of this, the new grub screw will be a few mm larger, then it will get the locating dowel machined into its end.

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This is what i purchased for it along with a matching lock nut.

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So on the up side, the cam didnt get damaged at all, the head did get hit by the piston but its only a very small mark, nothing to cause an issue, and the other 5 piston and rods are still all good.

So i have spoken to my machine shop to see if i can get 1 piston and rod, aside from that it will be a matter of machining a new block and crank, otherwise should be just bearings/gaskets etc so all in all very lucky that it will be a cheapish fix compared to what it could have been.

One of the valves did also mark the piston, so i'll be getting the head checked over to make sure no valves are bent etc.

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Re: FX Holden Race Car Project

Postby vlad01 » Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:08 pm

Holly shitballs!

I feel like there must have been a cause of loss of lubrication. I have not heard the old Holden 6 have too much issues with oil in high strung applications, so I think a complete teardown is in order to see if there is any causes.
You didn't happen to log oil pressure? Not that oil pressure is a reliable indication such as ecotecs where full pressure can be fine and loss of lubrication happens anyway due to the common cam bearing blocking the mains. But at least that can help eliminate air being drawn by the pickup.
I'm the director of VSH (Vlad's Spec Holden), because HSV were doing it ass about.

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Re: FX Holden Race Car Project

Postby heff0018 » Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:03 am

Bugger, hope you get it sorted out and amazing that the wasn’t more damage.

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Re: FX Holden Race Car Project

Postby Holden202T » Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:38 am

@vlad - i have done a complete tear down, the block is empty. The only things i can find wrong are the fucked cylinder and some bearing wear on a few of the mains as well as the #6 rod end.
I have always been concerned with oil in this engine after my oil pressure gauge was going to zero on the dyno (almost zero by 4000rpm up to redline). i figured thought if it actually was it probably would have failed on the dyno, so i installed a oil pressure sensor into the data logger, it never went below 30psi in the logs. (so probably a bit low for safety!)
BUT .... the oil goes into the block around cylinder 4, then there is a main gallery running along the motor beside the lifters, which provides oil to them and also down to all the main bearings, then the mains feed the cam & rods, from what i understand too, the mains 1, 3, 5 have a second hole in them to feel oil to the cam bearings.

so 1 & 6 are not only at the ends of the engine (and the oil system), but 1 at least is also shared with a cam bearing, so potentially there is just not enough going to it. I've found a bit of info since which says to drill out a few passages in the block, namely the one from the pump to the main gallery, and then also to enlarge the passages going to the mains that feed cams also, so this all makes sense, hopefully between that and bumping the pressure up will solve the issue.

the only other thing i did wonder about is the external oil pickup i have, i did wonder if maybe i had it too close to the sump floor, but i have confirmed since stripping the motor that i can actually just fit my finger under it, so that should be plenty enough of a gap allow sufficient oil into it - i did also wonder about oil slosh on launch, but i saw this issue on the dyno so that rules out g-forces.

@heff - yeah very lucky i didnt take out the cam or hurt the head thats for sure!

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Re: FX Holden Race Car Project

Postby immortality » Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:10 pm

vlad01 wrote:Holly shitballs!

I feel like there must have been a cause of loss of lubrication. I have not heard the old Holden 6 have too much issues with oil in high strung applications, so I think a complete teardown is in order to see if there is any causes.
You didn't happen to log oil pressure? Not that oil pressure is a reliable indication such as ecotecs where full pressure can be fine and loss of lubrication happens anyway due to the common cam bearing blocking the mains. But at least that can help eliminate air being drawn by the pickup.



Sorry to go off topic a bit,

I believe part of the problems with the ecotec eating bearings when driven hard for extended periods of time is oil temperature.

Did you know that in the middle east the Commodore V6 ecotec motors came with an engine oil cooler? Was speaking to one guy from Mecca (Saudi Arabia) who thinks they are fairly indestructible in their environment.

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Re: FX Holden Race Car Project

Postby vlad01 » Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:39 pm

Holden202T wrote:@vlad - i have done a complete tear down, the block is empty. The only things i can find wrong are the fucked cylinder and some bearing wear on a few of the mains as well as the #6 rod end.
I have always been concerned with oil in this engine after my oil pressure gauge was going to zero on the dyno (almost zero by 4000rpm up to redline). i figured thought if it actually was it probably would have failed on the dyno, so i installed a oil pressure sensor into the data logger, it never went below 30psi in the logs. (so probably a bit low for safety!)
BUT .... the oil goes into the block around cylinder 4, then there is a main gallery running along the motor beside the lifters, which provides oil to them and also down to all the main bearings, then the mains feed the cam & rods, from what i understand too, the mains 1, 3, 5 have a second hole in them to feel oil to the cam bearings.

so 1 & 6 are not only at the ends of the engine (and the oil system), but 1 at least is also shared with a cam bearing, so potentially there is just not enough going to it. I've found a bit of info since which says to drill out a few passages in the block, namely the one from the pump to the main gallery, and then also to enlarge the passages going to the mains that feed cams also, so this all makes sense, hopefully between that and bumping the pressure up will solve the issue.

the only other thing i did wonder about is the external oil pickup i have, i did wonder if maybe i had it too close to the sump floor, but i have confirmed since stripping the motor that i can actually just fit my finger under it, so that should be plenty enough of a gap allow sufficient oil into it - i did also wonder about oil slosh on launch, but i saw this issue on the dyno so that rules out g-forces.

@heff - yeah very lucky i didnt take out the cam or hurt the head thats for sure!




I found a page about all the 202 oil mods. The external pickup is one of them and they say a min of 5/8 tube or even 3/4 for high revving applications. It may be possible your oil pump was cavitating?


Here is the page I found. Interestingly they mention oil weight too. I have always felt that way about thick oils being no good for performance applications due to poor flow mainly when cold. Interesting to see they say the same.

http://www.bur.st/~oljohnno/page11.html

Might also be worth asking HSD in Melbourne about their mods as they build predominately Holden 6s for high power application regularly.
I'm the director of VSH (Vlad's Spec Holden), because HSV were doing it ass about.

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Re: FX Holden Race Car Project

Postby 0081 » Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:17 pm

Holden202T wrote:@vlad - i have done a complete tear down, the block is empty. The only things i can find wrong are the fucked cylinder and some bearing wear on a few of the mains as well as the #6 rod end.
I have always been concerned with oil in this engine after my oil pressure gauge was going to zero on the dyno (almost zero by 4000rpm up to redline). i figured thought if it actually was it probably would have failed on the dyno, so i installed a oil pressure sensor into the data logger, it never went below 30psi in the logs. (so probably a bit low for safety!)
BUT .... the oil goes into the block around cylinder 4, then there is a main gallery running along the motor beside the lifters, which provides oil to them and also down to all the main bearings, then the mains feed the cam & rods, from what i understand too, the mains 1, 3, 5 have a second hole in them to feel oil to the cam bearings.

so 1 & 6 are not only at the ends of the engine (and the oil system), but 1 at least is also shared with a cam bearing, so potentially there is just not enough going to it. I've found a bit of info since which says to drill out a few passages in the block, namely the one from the pump to the main gallery, and then also to enlarge the passages going to the mains that feed cams also, so this all makes sense, hopefully between that and bumping the pressure up will solve the issue.

the only other thing i did wonder about is the external oil pickup i have, i did wonder if maybe i had it too close to the sump floor, but i have confirmed since stripping the motor that i can actually just fit my finger under it, so that should be plenty enough of a gap allow sufficient oil into it - i did also wonder about oil slosh on launch, but i saw this issue on the dyno so that rules out g-forces.

@heff - yeah very lucky i didnt take out the cam or hurt the head thats for sure!


Interesting, did you ever find a part number for it?

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