VR Ute

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vlad01
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Re: VR Ute

Post by vlad01 »

The AC is a pain on these cars, you either get a good system or a lemon.

My restored VP, that had a brand new genuine comp, and only the 3-4th time using it, it started to make a horrible rattling moan. It only did it on hotter days, cooler days is sounded ok.

I have since fitted and modified an aftermarket one, but still haven't gone back to get it gassed, that was 2019.

The oil that came out of that NOS comp after it got really noisy is pristine, so I don't know what's wrong with it.


On my other cars, the AC works fine, but they do loose gas often via the hoses as the crimps squish out with age and you find that the cars that loose gas, you can grab the hoses and spin the rubber on the crimped fittings, often very easily. So there's your answer where the gas goes most often.

Starting with VR, they changed the hose and crimp style to what is modern still today, they very rarely have issues, it's only VP and older that have issues with hoses. When I got my restored VP's AC gassed, I had the old fittings cut off at the crimp and had those in situ type modern DIY crimps and fittings welded on to the original ones since the old part of the fittings were unique and obsolete. Very handy solution, but it took me ages finding an AC place, eventually one in Bendigo that could even do it, no place would even bother looking at making a set of hoses for me. I know the pain of these AC systems very well :lol:

Compressors were always hit and miss, those Sanden comps are overrated in my opinion.
I'm the director of VSH (Vlad's Spec Holden), because HSV were doing it ass about.
brindo
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Re: VR Ute

Post by brindo »

This is all I have on the bell housing end. It's just 10mm thick but I still have a a fair bit of adjustment out.
I'll have to see what I can find on the dampers in case something is missing from the other end. I'd easily get another 10mm spacer up that end.
Clutch Cable.jpg
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brindo
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Re: VR Ute

Post by brindo »

So something that I have not been happy with on the engine is the valve train noise. The noise is there at idle, but got worse with rpm and it sounded like a quieter version of a solid lifter cam. While I guess some would consider it normal as the cam does have a more aggressive ramp than the typical cams of similar lift and duration, I still don't think it is right. Might have been my imagination, but there was a very small change to the noise when I dropped out the running in oil, but not enough to convince me that there wasn’t something else wrong. I did drain the oil into a clean bucket and there was no metal so hasn’t wiped a lobe, or not yet. I have tried a heap of different lifter pre-load settings, but it made no difference. Oil pressure is fine.

I was thinking valve springs but have since confirmed what was fitted is OK. So that last thing I wanted to do was pull the manifold off, but I did. Pulled the lifters and they are all fine as is the cam. The lifters I bought were listed as being for a Holden v8, but the part number references them as being for a Pontiac. I know everyone says that they are the same as a Holden V8, but I am not entirely sure on this even though they do have the correct diameter, cup height and oil feed hole position. I did confirm that the oil feed was not exposed at full lift when I fitted them so I knew that’s not the issue.
When I installed these lifters I didn’t have a stock Holden lifter to compare them to, but even if I did, probably wouldn’t have been smart enough to do it anyway. But to my mind, I am thinking the Pontiac lifters are not suitable for a Holden v8.

I have ordered gaskets and a new set of Chev lifters as I recon even with the lower cup height these are a better match and will see how it goes.
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vlad01
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Re: VR Ute

Post by vlad01 »

Do you have headers? Often with a larger cam, the headers have a clicky tractor like noise due to the much stronger exhaust pressure/rarefaction waves. This is often mistaken for lifter noise.


As for the cable damper, they are pretty simple.

Rare spares sell them.

Screenshot 2025-03-04 at 20-50-48 vn cable damper - Google Search.png
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Screenshot 2025-03-04 at 20-51-11 vn cable damper - Google Search.png
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I'm the director of VSH (Vlad's Spec Holden), because HSV were doing it ass about.
brindo
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Location: Western Queensland

Re: VR Ute

Post by brindo »

Yes it has headers, but the noise is definitely valve train related.

The clutch damper is pretty much what I have, but I have no idea where that spring connects up to. I know it goes over the cable to hold it off the exhaust, but no idea exactly where it goes and what it connects into.
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vlad01
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Re: VR Ute

Post by vlad01 »

That's the thing, it 100% can sound like it's coming from the middle of the engine, but a hose to the ear can tell otherwise. Mine makes the noise near the exhaust ports on the header tubes just coming off the heads, I also hear some in the intake runners. But when you probe into the open rocker covers, no noise indicative of valvetrain, also no noise in the block areas. Even on knock ears it's quieter than externally to the ears.

I have roller hydraulic lifters, but it sounds like mechanical ones, but unlike lifter noise that is more erratic and worst at idle, this is constant and increases with rpm, lifter noise when hydraulic normally disappears as rpm increases with increased oil pressure.


You might be right, could be lifters, but in my experience it's been false alarms every time.

I recall the intake rattle/tractor ticking Gareth's old speedway engine made, and it was the roof of the plenum cover. Sounded like some serious diesel engine like/ lifter rattle, but when you put your hand on the lid, the noise nearly stopped and you could feel the intake port waves hitting the lid with your hand. So freaky and something I never thought about before.


Try the hose method and have a listen inside the rocker cover, that will be very telling. If it's lifters/valve train, it should be significantly louder in there then anywhere else you probe, if its less than externally, likely intake/exhaust related which as mentioned, larger cams make these far louder and clickier than stock.


As for the spring on the cable, I have no idea, but on some FB there were one or two people that insisted it was attached to the brake line on the inner guard and claimed that VN to VS came like that from factory, even though I have seen zero evidence for this, so I speculate the spring might be a thing they did on the really old model well before VL for example since that damper kit covers all models that used the damper.

I never saw any pics or mention of this spring in my Gregory's workshop manual for VR commodore. Most of the pics in there are of brand new cars at the time, so they should have nothing missing. I will double check my manual is case I have missed it, but I am sure I have covered everything a million times in that manual.

On some cars I had to do nothing to secure the cable, sits well away naturally, on my daily I cable tied it to the mentioned brake lines. No issue with the headers, it's actually broke one of my ignition leads at the plug once and that is what the cable often wants to rest on, the ends of the lead sockets.
I'm the director of VSH (Vlad's Spec Holden), because HSV were doing it ass about.
brindo
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Re: VR Ute

Post by brindo »

So the Chev lifters are installed. Immediately on start-up there was a massive improvement. I knew I didn’t have the rocker geometry quite right with the new Chev lifters, but didn’t think this would be of any consequence. But thanks to a bit of advice from a valve spring guru, I have corrected the geometry as best I can without going to new pushrods, and the noise is as good as gone. At present my rocker adjustments are wound down about 1½ turns including the pre-load, whereas I believe it should closer to 2½ turns after the pre-load is set. So to get it perfect I need longer pushrods and shim up the rockers again.

I have asked a few questions on this, and yes it's generally accepted by people smarter than me that these Pontiac lifters are the right ones for a Holden V8.
So take it or leave it, this is just my humble not an expert in anything opinion.
The Comp Cams lifter is on the left, and the Crower Pontiac lifter is on the right.
While the cup heights and lifter diameter are pretty much the same and correct for a Holden, and the oil feed hole is close, the recess that opens up to the oil gallery is not. I believe there are two issues here.
The first is that the machined recess around the lifter body is too high, and it does not align with the oil gallery in the block.
The second is that the depth of the machined recess is around 0.030” deep on the Comp Cams lifter, and it is only 0.015” deep on the Crower lifter. So couple this with the above and the oil feed is restricted. Particularly as the lifter rotates, the oil feed hole can be opposite the gallery, and the oil path to it is pretty tight.

The top of the lifter oil recess is well above the top of the oil gallery in the block.
The bottom of the recess is probably closer to the top of the gallery than it is to the bottom. And the oil supply gets completely blocked off as the lifter rises up. At idle it is Ok, but as rpm increases, it becomes a time issue. And that I recon was the cause of the noise.
So while the Pontiac lifter still gets some oil supply to the oil feed, it is quite restricted, and gets completely blocked off as the lifter rises up in the bore. It must get some oil as there was oil getting to the top end.
Lifters.JPG
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Make of it what you will, but my advice is don’t use Pontiac flat tappet lifters in a Holden V8. Only reason I bought Chev lifters cause it was all I could find easily in a decent known brand. If you can find a known brand in a HT969 Holden specific lifter then that’s probably a better option.
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vlad01
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Re: VR Ute

Post by vlad01 »

Nice find! I knew most lifters have some variance on the oiling band width and height, but that deviation on the Pontiac one is huge!

I figured most lifters made these days have low bleed down, but obviously not with that one.
I'm the director of VSH (Vlad's Spec Holden), because HSV were doing it ass about.
brindo
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Re: VR Ute

Post by brindo »

Two things I seem to say a lot.
1. Slow down
2. Watch the road.
Think she gets it now. Rim is stuffed. I don't have a spare alloy rim for it either. Be cheaper to find another set than get it fixed.
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vlad01
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Re: VR Ute

Post by vlad01 »

Ouch! what did she hit?
I'm the director of VSH (Vlad's Spec Holden), because HSV were doing it ass about.
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