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DWS wrote:There could be real minor tuning differences between the two, but since it's only 5hp more, it doesn't seem like it would be much of anything, if anything the computer you have in it now could make more hp with the larger intake/exhaust. 5hp is splitting hairs though, most dynos you're going to change a few hp at those levels since nothing is exactly the same and every run is slightly different. To give context, if it was 170hp for SE and 175hp for GT, that's a 3% difference. You'd probably never notice the difference driving it, if you race it, like 1/4 mile, I suspect you'd see the time differences then.

Also remember, the trans shift pattern and such are part of the computer too, so the GT could be sporting a bit more aggressive pattern to make it hold gears a little longer. Depending how you look at it, the SE might actually give you similar hp and better mpg under the same driving conditions.

Anyway, getting a BCM + PCM from a different junk yard and getting the one from the correct model should fix your worries on the GT vs SE, but technically it should be possible to copy the GT programming to the SE. The no crank issue sounds like BCM has to match the PCM, and when they do match it's good. Normally "passwords" are terms thrown around that just means a code both devices agree on which generally is the VIN number for GM's. For Toyota it's the raw key code, not encrypted or anything. It would be kind of interesting to check the tune GT vs SE but I suspect the numbers are very similar.

This makes me wonder if the 90's quad fours standard vs high output, if the computers were different at all, or if it was just physical changes, cams and intake I'm pretty sure are different on the HO version, probably larger exhaust too. I read up on swapping the parts over long ago but no one mentioned about needing the computer swap to get the full power.

I'm going to be reading the bin file today off the se, so hopefully I can compare them. I cant wait to be able to write the tuned files...hopefully it will be soon.

DethRattles wrote:
I'm going to be reading the bin file today off the se, so hopefully I can compare them. I cant wait to be able to write the tuned files...hopefully it will be soon.

Please let us (me) know what, if any, differences there are.
I really think that the larger exhaust pipe is responsible for the 5HP. (The Venture was rated at 185HP)

Mike

MudDuck514 wrote:

DethRattles wrote:
I'm going to be reading the bin file today off the se, so hopefully I can compare them. I cant wait to be able to write the tuned files...hopefully it will be soon.

Please let us (me) know what, if any, differences there are.
I really think that the larger exhaust pipe is responsible for the 5HP. (The Venture was rated at 185HP)

Mike

i have no idea how or what to use to compare them. The way i'd do it sounds retarded and its to write down every single thing unless i can open two bins at once? windows 11 multitasks so that should be easier. Forgot i just got this laptop,, last i used windows was windows 2000.

a bin file means it's binary, aka raw data. You can compare bin files with any type of program to compare binary files, they normally display the contents as hexadecimal (16 based, aka 0-9 and A-F).

The actual tune data location might be different between the two though so that route might not work out the greatest. A better route would be to load the bin into a program that's designed for changing the tune on cars like TunerPro (free), but that software requires another file called an XDF which basically tells the program where to look for the different data items in the bin file. Universal patcher (also free) can open the bin files and attempt to pull the tune data and such. I think it auto detects the locations based on some pre-defined rules, effectively it creates the XDF on it's own. This is the software I used to poke at my car's data before. Can modify and save, but make sure to backup the orig bin files and label them well so you can always revert back to stock. In fact if the hardware is all the same, you could read the bin off the GT computer, put it on the SE computer and then the GT BCM would sync to both computers. Should be able to find the VIN in there pretty easily to make your GT computer match the SE VIN so you can use the SE BCM assuming it's the VIN that it's looking for.

The actual tune tables I haven't gotten into much, but in theory should be able to at least compare them one by one. I'd target something simple like the ignition timing table since that can make a pretty big change on how the engine responds.

I'd also be interested in hearing if there's any difference. I'm sure the numbers won't match 100% exact, but just 1-2 off here and there probably doesn't do much, if it's advancing lower in the rpm for example and it's consistently 1-2 higher in one area, then I'd say the tune is a bit different. I don't really do much with tuning, so I'm probably not the best resource for looking at the minor changes and knowing if it's enough of a change or not.

Another big table is the VE table, basically air vs rpm vs fuel if I'm thinking right. That table should effectively mimic the torque curve of the engine for where it fuels more.

DWS wrote:a bin file means it's binary, aka raw data. You can compare bin files with any type of program to compare binary files, they normally display the contents as hexadecimal (16 based, aka 0-9 and A-F).

The actual tune data location might be different between the two though so that route might not work out the greatest. A better route would be to load the bin into a program that's designed for changing the tune on cars like TunerPro (free), but that software requires another file called an XDF which basically tells the program where to look for the different data items in the bin file. Universal patcher (also free) can open the bin files and attempt to pull the tune data and such. I think it auto detects the locations based on some pre-defined rules, effectively it creates the XDF on it's own. This is the software I used to poke at my car's data before. Can modify and save, but make sure to backup the orig bin files and label them well so you can always revert back to stock. In fact if the hardware is all the same, you could read the bin off the GT computer, put it on the SE computer and then the GT BCM would sync to both computers. Should be able to find the VIN in there pretty easily to make your GT computer match the SE VIN so you can use the SE BCM assuming it's the VIN that it's looking for.

The actual tune tables I haven't gotten into much, but in theory should be able to at least compare them one by one. I'd target something simple like the ignition timing table since that can make a pretty big change on how the engine responds.

I'd also be interested in hearing if there's any difference. I'm sure the numbers won't match 100% exact, but just 1-2 off here and there probably doesn't do much, if it's advancing lower in the rpm for example and it's consistently 1-2 higher in one area, then I'd say the tune is a bit different. I don't really do much with tuning, so I'm probably not the best resource for looking at the minor changes and knowing if it's enough of a change or not.

Another big table is the VE table, basically air vs rpm vs fuel if I'm thinking right. That table should effectively mimic the torque curve of the engine for where it fuels more.

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=8183 the bins moved over here. They are different in a few ways. Antus describes them in a language you'll understand. I tried opening the se bin in univesal patcher and couldnt, i then wrote the xdf and was then able to see it in tunerpro but not in tiny tuner. I dont know the exact steps to see side by side (if that is an option in tunerpro) the comparison between differences. And i chaanged the vin on the gt to match with the se,,the car wouldnt crank or go into relearn security mode. The only way is to physically swap the bcm eeprom chips or take mine off and copy it.

and heres the se version

I see, he did say they are different OS's so a raw binary compare can flag some things different that doesn't really matter, but it catches EVERYTHING that's different.

I never used the program he used, but once you've worked with hex dumps and have a rough idea of what you're looking at, it's pretty intuitive to understand. Since yo don't have the hex experience though, I'm sure it's just a bunch of numbers and letters to you lol.

I'll break it down so hopefully at least a little can click for you.

Differences between:
First file: "grandambenchoriginal.bin"
Second file: "grandamsealphaoriginal.bin"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
0006F9A0 | 26 1F | 0006F9A0 | 13 42 |
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The format is probably broken in this, but 1st file should be the left side, 2nd file should be the right side, so the file name is critical to reference when you want to try to understand the why something is different for example.

The first big number 0006F9A0 which is repeated for the 2nd file is the "address", another way that would probably make more sense for you is it's decimal number (10 base instead of 16 base, we work in 10 base). The address converts to 457120 which means the left side is the 457120th byte in the file which the first one is hex 26 which can be said a million ways, 0x26 is a common one to signal hex. and the next one is 0x13 in the other file. To put "real" numbers to that it's 38 vs 19, it converts the same way as the addresses. 0x00 is 0 while 0xFF is 255.

Anyway, you can see there's some patterns that changed, they could be simply flags to jump to different sections of code, or in the bigger blocks, it could be a change in the tune. Seeing how different the numbers look gives you and idea of how different they are for a tune. Like if one spot is 0x04 and another it's 0x24 that's a fairly good sized difference, but it's all relative. To represent numbers over 255 it takes 2 bytes of data, like 0x0100 is 256 just like how we go from 99 to 100 we use another digit for 10 base, just F is the 16 base's "9" or technically speaking it's 15 lol.

Anyway, the files are quite similar, as in most likely the two OS's are similar in design/format. The actual tune data you'd probably have to load up the file into universal patcher and check what the addresses are for the tune table you want to target first. I don't have it installed so can't really do it for you, but that would be more of a user friendly way of going about it. If you want to learn the hex stuff more, universal patcher does give you the addresses so you can use the compare file and see the differences in that area in it's raw form.

FYI, besides just hexadec (16 base) converted to dec (10 base), the actual numbers might not directly mean anything until you run it through another conversion which is just how the computer is designed. Like anything rpm based is unlikely to be raw rpm numbers, like 3000 rpm stored as hex, it's more likely it's based on some formula the programmers came up with to save data space vs processing power since RPM is calculated from ticks since the last fire event, and the ticks or clock cycles is often times millions per second. That's how the cpu see's "time" in the code, so this is a pretty deep/technical example.

Anyway, for getting into hardware at that kind of level, it's better to start with something simpler. This is far from a first project, but he does a good job explaining things well and he's working with binary (2 base, aka 1's and 0's) and 10 base, so it somewhat relates. Hexadec is a bit special since it's just a way to view binary data, binary is defined as that 2 base, but sometimes it's actually 10 base data it's holding so kind of need to learn both sides of that to grasp it a bit more. The curve ball is some of that data is actually assembly code which is binary, which would be the actual code that runs on the computer's processor to make things happen. GM mixed data and program on the same chip so it's a bit of a mixed up mess because of that, but I suspect a lot of companies did it similarly.

The vid also shows the use of a table, pretty similar context of how tables are used in the computers too. Like there will likely be a table for the calibration of some of the sensors so GM can use different sensors in different vehicles, but only have to change the table to make them work with the existing code.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zffjsXqATg

Here's where he converts that big monster logic gate mess into an eeprom lookup table. Not exactly the same setup as car computers, but it's an idea at least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA12Z7gQ4P0

Its going to take me quite awhile to understand what you said, I do understand the clicks though. I'm going to watch a few videos on the subject. I don't know if i'll be able to or not. I learn by hands on and watching someone do it. My memory is shit so reading doesnt help. I have a long ways to go. What i have learned is that i really want my gt pcm back in there and too scared to desolder and solder the eeprom on the bcm. I bought chipquick and the youtube guy made it look easy. I'm just going to wait until pcmhammer is able to write p04's and clone my gt one. I'm little afraid though that it cant be cloned because it might still need that original bcm despite me disabling vats/changing vin etc. I have a working se pcm and bcm and want my car to stay running until i can gather some funds. I appreciate what you said DWS, i need someone to dumb this stuff down a bit more though

I did learn how to make an xdf file through patcher,,,its just a shame tiny tuner is able to see my gt bin table with 544 tables in it and not the se version with 8...8:(

Yea, that kind of shows the state of P04's, some are worked out, other's have a long ways to go on the open source side.

For the soldering project, you could do that same process with just about any electronic with a 8 pin chip similar to the EEPROM to get the hands on experience. The process is pretty easy, but getting the tooling and right settings and such takes a little bit of playing around to get what works well with out going too crazy hot.

Could watch on ebay for a BCM that's cheap that's similar to yours and use it to learn on, pull off the chip, solder it back on that type of logic. Ideally you'd have a way to actually test it too but probably not the easiest item to do that with.

Like I've said before, this computer stuff can get real deep real fast lol. Surface level stuff where it's friendly for the end user is only really possible once others really work out how things work and are able to package it into a simple program to use, even then, tuning is an art in it's self and there's people that make a living that just tune engines and that's it. It helps they also have a dyno most of the time =).

DWS wrote:Yea, that kind of shows the state of P04's, some are worked out, other's have a long ways to go on the open source side.

For the soldering project, you could do that same process with just about any electronic with a 8 pin chip similar to the EEPROM to get the hands on experience. The process is pretty easy, but getting the tooling and right settings and such takes a little bit of playing around to get what works well with out going too crazy hot.

Could watch on ebay for a BCM that's cheap that's similar to yours and use it to learn on, pull off the chip, solder it back on that type of logic. Ideally you'd have a way to actually test it too but probably not the easiest item to do that with.

Like I've said before, this computer stuff can get real deep real fast lol. Surface level stuff where it's friendly for the end user is only really possible once others really work out how things work and are able to package it into a simple program to use, even then, tuning is an art in it's self and there's people that make a living that just tune engines and that's it. It helps they also have a dyno most of the time =).

I contacted Eddie from Tiny Tuners and asked for his help, he hasnt touched it in 10yrs but he said he'd try to get tiny tuners to open all the flags. sent him my se bin and osid so hopefully he can help