265 Hemi to efi

Converting To Delco ECU From Carby Or Other Injection Systems
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Re: 265 Hemi to efi

Postby oldn64 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:32 am

heff0018 wrote:The lan to ring gap is something I haven’t considered before but will be checking from now on. With change in piston weight I thought balancing The crank would be required.

What brand of diesel oil are you running?


Ideally yes balancing would be awesome. However, as it is for a boat there is so much other stuff going on the effort and dollars I dont see giving you any real advantage. Have a very good friend and her and her father are in offshore racing and I believe the only boat they have balanced is hers because it is only a 1600cc corolla motor in a tinny essentially (yes she is nuts) and she needed the balance to stop breaking cranks because she revs the thing to 9,500

I know they are currently building a twin motor LS3 powered turbo extreme offshore currently and will balance both of them.

Yes with lighter pistons you should balance your rotating.

as far as oil it depends on which car..... both my race cars use topdog from GW (cheap and supercheap has it) in the VE sv6 it gets penrite HPR40 from memory and the VE SS wagon runs the HPR30+10. The Hillman Gazelle uses HPR30 and the EH gets a castrol product but need to go to the shed to find out what it is. The statesman when I ran it (currently in a rebuild) ran the top dog as well. The Pajero (it is a diesel) will run topdog as well and the dyna truck will depend on the motor i put it in in the end.

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Re: 265 Hemi to efi

Postby heff0018 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:54 am

Thanks, the dodge/valiant drives like a boat so you not far wrong there.

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Re: 265 Hemi to efi

Postby Charlescrown » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:27 am

A good set of forged pistons will be balanced very accurately. I never could work out how they calculate the added weight to the crank when balancing but do know some crank configurations the don't add any weight just spin it and check the dynamic balance as a separate unit to the up and down static weight of the pistons. The rods get a bit more complicated. I have never had a rebalance done for forged pistons and never noticed any extra vibration.

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Re: 265 Hemi to efi

Postby oldn64 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:47 am

heff0018 wrote:Thanks, the dodge/valiant drives like a boat so you not far wrong there.


Sorry Heff0018,

I thought it was in a boat.... ignore the boat side of things, i must be confusing yours with another project. If you wish to do balancing of the engine then you can, if this is not a race car and thus sqeezing every last hp out of the thing is not your goal then dont work too much. The amount of difference is not that critical. It can be when the cast pistons are heavy as hell but these are not factory pistons from what i have seen so will have been changed at some stage anyway.

To give you the idea I specifically built a 308 holden motor with a 253 crank because they are naturally lighter. This was a race car and I needed it to rev. Reciprocating mass is the killer for the engine to rev but the other side effect is that the lighter the mass for rotational the quicker it will loose revs as well (read going up a hill and not thus is slows down because the stored interia drops quickly. The pistons I used were so light that they were literally half that of the originals. Using a 308 crank I would have taken that much metal out of the crank counter weights that the crank would have potentially be compromised.

I do not see a need to balance in a street car unless constant heavy hard pulls are expected. If this is a cruiser with occasion blast then it should be fine. For piece of mind, weight all of the conrods, gudgeon pins, rings, pistons and bolts and compare them to the new stuff you are using. Let see whether there is a huge difference.

Charlescrown wrote:A good set of forged pistons will be balanced very accurately. I never could work out how they calculate the added weight to the crank when balancing but do know some crank configurations the don't add any weight just spin it and check the dynamic balance as a separate unit to the up and down static weight of the pistons. The rods get a bit more complicated. I have never had a rebalance done for forged pistons and never noticed any extra vibration.


The vibration for most of this happens at a micro level. It is actually engine harmonics and therefore not always felt through the car. Balancing a rotational mass is easy and just a heap of mathematics. If your balancer is worth their weight in gold then they will also take into account the oil weight that would be within the system. The method of balancing is matching the parts of the cylinders so that they are technically identical in weight. This will be swapping pistons and rods until over all it is balanced. Then calculations are made for how much weight to put on each of the journals to simulate what the cylinder component weights are, then the weight plus the crank are spun up with harmonic sensors to measure and allow the crank to be matched to the cylinder vertical or horizontal motions. This in turn then like balancing a car wheel gets weight added or in most cases removed. Have you ever driven with a non balanced wheel? the effects are not that great and the harmonic will happen about the 80 km/h mark. it is not terrible but sometime annoying. My race cars never have there tyres balanced. firstly the tyre surface changes to much as the slick wears that a balance when fitted would be different after the first heat cycle and secondly i am not at 80km/h for very long and thus it generally will not have a fit again until 160km/h which again i am not at for very long. Whereas on a road car you spend alot of time at 80km/h and thsu it is annoying if not balanced. Having stated that if you are doing 160km/h in a road car then you might have other issues....... ;)

If you want to have less of a boat Heff0018 then look at going to the smaller Chrysler cars.... Galant, Lancer, Hillman, Sunbeam, Humber. Heck I would even suggest Sigma. Small fact for you, when Chrysler bought Rootes group they actually put a 318 as an option into the Humber supersnipe. There are mean that took this option. Chrysler owning Rootes also spelt the end of the Tiger seeing it was powered by a Ford v8 (Cheapest Shelby car ever, and one of the rarer). Similarly Chrysler had an option of the 318 into the Galants. This was optioned only in Japan and only in the coupes. There chassis were designed to take this large engine and was continued across tot he sigma. Infact the rails in the sigma are identical to the Galants, they just moved the steering box to the other side of the rail and made the car a little wider to accomodate the exhaust etc that was needed for the 2000 and larger offerings. While Chrysler never optioned the 318 into the Sigma it is essentially a bolt in option. Chrysler cars are awesome, it is just a pitty Chrysler today is a former shadow of what they were originally.

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Re: 265 Hemi to efi

Postby vlad01 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:23 pm

Charlescrown wrote:A good set of forged pistons will be balanced very accurately. I never could work out how they calculate the added weight to the crank when balancing but do know some crank configurations the don't add any weight just spin it and check the dynamic balance as a separate unit to the up and down static weight of the pistons. The rods get a bit more complicated. I have never had a rebalance done for forged pistons and never noticed any extra vibration.


what RPM do you anticipate the max it could see? These engines are very bad when it comes to destructive harmonics. A high tolerance balance would be a good idea but it depends on the RPM range you want to take it.


6-6.4K is where the 2nd order breaks them usually makes no difference how strong the parts are either. So the tricks my local mech said he found over the 40+ years of building performance valiant 6s is getting the right types of harmonic balancers, I recall the ATI ones he said seem to help them a bit. Also if you plan to rev in and above this range is to rev past the 6.4k and let if drop past it quick too, hold them there and they blow up regardless :lol:

Unfortunate consequence of the inline 6 design, not much better than inline 4 when it comes to 2nd order balance, it's destructive and you can't get ride of it, it gets worse the larger the bore and heavier the reciprocating weight is, all which is the worst on valiant 6s.

I don't think you will have issues with high rpm as it seems like yours will be low reeving torque engine with boost anyway. But worth keeping in mind. Balancing the new parts is a critical step that can't be skipped. Only 10-20 grams out can induce 100s of Kg equivalent force on the rotating mass, even into the tons if the rpm is high enough. It's a squared function, double the rpm, quadruple the force. I would definitely balance it, especially on an engine known to be sensitive to it.
I'm the director of VSH (Vlad's Spec Holden), because HSV were doing it ass about.

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Re: 265 Hemi to efi

Postby Charlescrown » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:46 pm

I am well aware of the different points of harmonics having removed the balance shaft from a 2.6 Mitsubishi engine only to pull it apart and put it back the way it was built within less than an hour of driving. My comment is a piston swap to improve reliability not increase the rpm of then engine. I know a balance is a good thing for an std engine particularly of that era. I am not familiar with the bad points of the Chrysler 6 but like all other inline 6's there are problems to be overcome so In my opinion don't go for revs but the torque under the curve.

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Re: 265 Hemi to efi

Postby heff0018 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:04 pm

Thanks for the info, I will be rebalancing the crank at least.

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Re: 265 Hemi to efi

Postby heff0018 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:14 pm

The manual steering has been pissing me off and is the worst part of the car. Its heavy slow and sloppy and so while the motors out I am installing power steering with an Astra electric steering pump. The inner guard and length of column shaft is different for the power steering models so a little panel massaging was required to fit the larger Chrysler power steering box. I swapped the column shift column for a blank column with the shorter p/s shaft and the rag joint was also a pain in the arse but the box is now in. I also bought a 120 Amp alternator which is the same size as the Astra unit.



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Re: 265 Hemi to efi

Postby Mechcano » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:45 pm

Heff0018

The factory cut out the inner on power steering cars, this is a V8 car.

I'll be interested to see how the change to power steering works out for you, because personally
I think that power steering box is one of the worst ever made, it is very light and has virtually no road feel
or feed back.

Image

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Re: 265 Hemi to efi

Postby Charlescrown » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:37 pm

I remember the days as an apprentice when I took out a Valiant for a test drive and having exceptional driving skills (at the time) either coming close to hitting the gutter or spinning out on corners due of course to the wonderful power steering. They need a slightly thicker torsion bar in the steering box control valve but I don't know if anyone ever made one.

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