efi 440 help

[valiantsofttop]

gday everyone, im new to efi and panning on making it work on my 440 when its eventually back together. hopefully around the 550-600fw hp mark

ive been doing a bit of reading on the internet for a long time now and most of it goes over my head and i get sick of it then come back a few months later.
can someone correct me if im wrong with anything here.
vn/vp model
the delco 808 is batch fired (all injectors at once?)
fuel is calculated by a multiplication of a constant(is that the kinj rate) x cyl size x manifold pressure?
due to being batch fired can 16 injectors be wired in place of the original 8 or will that fry something (ie 16 injectors at half the size of the original 8)

can anyone confirm or deny my following theory please
theory is to use a stock vn ss tune on the 440 for initial purposes, with injectors slightly larger than required for safety (ie not lean).
please note this is a theory only with no proof to back any of it up, im not even sure of the factory injector size, just using it for calculation purposes

i realy dont want to have to get a complete re map done before i know im completely happy with the setup of everything else. the computor uses cyl size as one of the calculations so i wonder how much that changes the amount of fuel going in.
so 5L is 5000cc (5000/8= 625) ie each cly is 625cc
440+40 is 7.3 (7300/8=912.5)
so a 440 is (912.5/625=1.46) 1.46 times the size of a 5L 0r simply 5x1.46=7.3

so if we take the original injector size (read somewhere that its 24lb but dont quote me on on it)
24x1.46= 35.
so because the delco system uses only manifold pressure (it doesnt actually measure flow it calculates it using cyl size) then on a stock vn ss tune a 440 can run 35lb injectors.
can anyone confirm this for me, might be possible to run 2 sets of 18lb injectors =36lb

35lb injectors at 80% duty cycle are capable of 450hp which is short of what i want but maybe good for initial

any help is much appreciated.
cheers, mat

[Holden202T]

gday everyone, im new to efi and panning on making it work on my 440 when its eventually back together. hopefully around the 550-600fw hp mark

ive been doing a bit of reading on the internet for a long time now and most of it goes over my head and i get sick of it then come back a few months later.
can someone correct me if im wrong with anything here.
vn/vp model
the delco 808 is batch fired (all injectors at once?) Yes
fuel is calculated by a multiplication of a constant(is that the kinj rate) x cyl size x manifold pressure? theres a bit more too it than that but roughly - Yes
due to being batch fired can 16 injectors be wired in place of the original 8 or will that fry something (ie 16 injectors at half the size of the original 8) Not sure on that one, but probably not without some changes (like an injector driver)

can anyone confirm or deny my following theory please
theory is to use a stock vn ss tune on the 440 for initial purposes, with injectors slightly larger than required for safety (ie not lean).
please note this is a theory only with no proof to back any of it up, im not even sure of the factory injector size, just using it for calculation purposes
Thats probably a fairly good starting point, use a stock tune, change the injector rate to suit your engine size and injectors being used

i realy dont want to have to get a complete re map done before i know im completely happy with the setup of everything else. the computor uses cyl size as one of the calculations so i wonder how much that changes the amount of fuel going in.
so 5L is 5000cc (5000/8= 625) ie each cly is 625cc
440+40 is 7.3 (7300/8=912.5)
so a 440 is (912.5/625=1.46) 1.46 times the size of a 5L 0r simply 5x1.46=7.3

so if we take the original injector size (read somewhere that its 24lb but dont quote me on on it)
24x1.46= 35.
so because the delco system uses only manifold pressure (it doesnt actually measure flow it calculates it using cyl size) then on a stock vn ss tune a 440 can run 35lb injectors.
can anyone confirm this for me, might be possible to run 2 sets of 18lb injectors =36lb
an example here for you, the injector rate on a stock 5L is .147 i think, then just by changing the cylinder size (still using 19lb stock injectors for a 5L) it will change that number to approx .200 ....

Then if you change the injectors to say 60lb that injector constant changes to .060 ....

so theres plenty of scope to do what you want.

35lb injectors at 80% duty cycle are capable of 450hp which is short of what i want but maybe good for initial
My suggestion would be to use some bigger injectors like the siemens deka 80lbs etc which should be well capable of what you need, these will work with the standard computer and not have any issues of needed 16 injectors etc
any help is much appreciated.
cheers, mat

Also i'd recommend hearing some input from VL400, he tinkers with his mates Val which has a big V8 in it injected so he'll probably be able to assist with some of the finer details of converting said motor to EFI.

[valiantsofttop]

was trying to avoid modifying the tune at all, what sort of cost would i be looking at to have an ecu tuned to use 72lb injectors suit 7.3L engine with standard fuel/ignition maps? also does anyone know a good place to find dyno results of stock commodores so i can find a close base tune to what i want to work with.

cheers, mat

[VL400]

Welcome. There is some info here relating to converting a SB, BB prob not that much different. https://pcmhacking.net/forums/viewtopi ... 57&p=10279

Have you read the getting started guide below? Has some info on how you can get setup to make changes to the memcal. Will be heaps cheaper for you to buy a programmer than have a shop do it for you. There is lots going on inside the ECU to determine the fuel and spark, any standard tune wont run well but should be enough to make it start. You will also need to adjust all the cranking fuel tables with larger injectors.

[valiantsofttop]

yea ive tried reading through the getting started thread, id like to have the ability to program without the uv erasing (to do that i need to solder in an eeprom in place of the eprom?) can i buy one already soldered in ready to plug into a pc. is there a thread with pictures somewhere showing where things are actually soldered to and what they are replacing. also whats the best ecu to start with, the vr/vs one is faster or something but is it going to be easier to start with a vn/vp one. Its only an na engine that im not realy concerned about fuel economy so it realy only has to be a crude tune.

also can i run a knock sensor from a v8 commodore or will the different engine dimensions not be filtered out.

the knowledge you guys have is amazing.
thanks for your help.
Mat

[VL400]

If you can get hold of a 29c256 EEPROM you just cut out the EPROM and solder in the EEPROM. The NVRAM boards (https://pcmhacking.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=167) are another option and can make tuning changes on the fly.

There is no difference in performance of a VN/VP and VR/VS ECU. The difference is only in the data rate they support, 160baud for the VN/VP and 8192baud for VR/VS. However there are ways to get the VN/VP ecu to operate identically to the later model. You need to use a the VR/VS bin and have a data interface board..
RS232 - https://pcmhacking.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=165
USB - https://pcmhacking.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=164
SXR - https://pcmhacking.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=398 - Converts the VN/VP into a VR/VS but still need a data interface to connect. This is more for if you have a BCM too.

The knock sensor will work but the knock filter on the memcal wont, its very much dependant on bore size. Might be a US based chev vehicle that may have a knock sensor and filter that would work?

[valiantsofttop]

so which is the better one to start with the vr/vs or the vn/vp, i havent brought any bits yet so might as wel start with the better stuff.
can i buy an ecu with the eeprom already connected ready to plug into (so i cant stuff up the soldering myself).
cheers, mat

[valiantsofttop]

as for bore size a 440 is a bit bigger than a 454 and i dont think they had efi anyway so i might have to can that idea

[Holden202T]

VR V8 ecm is going to be a better one to get, but also alot harder to find.

personally i'd suggest getting a VN/VP computer, cheaper and will work fine once fitted with the right realtime bits.

if you don't feel confident doing the sodering etc VL400 can sell you what you need fully assembled and installed into your ecm if you mail it to him - he has different pricing depending how much work you want him to do for you (ie. from kit form to fully setup etc).

[valiantsofttop]

alright, after talking with vl400 it looks like the cost will be 300+ for the computor then i need to get cords etc and i still dont realy know how to work it.
with uv erasing etc how hard/expensive would it be for one of you guys to tune an ecu to stock vn/vp ss, change the kinj rate and set the rev limit to 6200 (will i also need to disable the knock sensor).

if i could get this done and set it up so it is overfueling then it should be at least good enough to let me setup the hardware properly. then either get it dyno tuned by a shop, work out how to tune it myself or go wolf/haltec etc