Injector Questions for Buick V6 in a VP commodore

[silentshout]

Good evening brainstrust.

Just looking for some information around injectors on a series 2 VP commodore v6. We suspected the injectors were leaking as it has the typical warm start struggle issues and smell of fuel (especially cylinders 1 and 2) if its been sitting for an hr or two.

So went to replace them and found Some Mace injectors. Part number on the factory injectors matched the number mace said were compatible ( 0 280 150 790 is the number on the factory injectors)

here are the list for the MACE injectors:

Specifications:

Interchangeable with 0280150790
Static flow: 20lb/hr(±5%), 210 cc/min @ 3 bar
Dynamic flow: (10ms): 6.4lb/hr(±5%)
Electrical connector type: EV1
Resistance: 12 ± 1 Ohms
Operation Voltage: 4.5~12 V
Sauter Mean Diameter (SMD): 1590 ?m
Pulse Width: 0.7 ms
Injection Cycle: 3.7 ms

We put them in and it was definitely over fueling (Black unburnt fuel out the exhaust, car idling poorly, Idle control valve screaming for more air) Tried driving and low end (2500rpm or below + Idle) it ran like crap, but get it up in the rev range and it was running very nicely.

Tried troubleshooting everything else, even used a Then unmodified spare 808 ecu to rule that out as well.

Put the factory injectors back in and it was fine. Reached out to mace and they have sent another box just in case, however before going down the rabbit hole again i thought i would try to do some verification.

I was trying to find the factory injector specifications for the ones that came out of the VP and its very inconsistent.
Some sources say 19lb injectors, some say 20lb injectors, Some say the factory bosch ones are 15.9 Ohms resistance, others say 12-14.

The injector information thread on this forum doesnt list that injector part number at all and instead lists the below:

VN, VP, VR V6 FROM 11/90
0 280 150 960 (EV1)
19.92 LB/HR 204 CC/MIN 150.58 G/MIN 14.5 Ohm 3.0bar OP


Any knowledge is greatly appreciated or even experience with MACE injectors is handy too, now I have the NVRAM and comms board set up, if this new lot mace sent out are over fueling still i can at least dial it in somehow.

Many thanks in advance,

[vlad01]

Not sure what part number they got there for "compatible with" I've never seen it.

Quick google suggests they are E series falcon ones.
This list shows they are pretty similar to the Buick ones with both suggesting tad over 18 lb.

https://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/InjectorRatesBosch.html


VP-VR injectors are 0280 150 960 FYI anyway, and early VN ones ended in 901.


What I am going to say is the likely scenario, is that most of the flow rate numbers out there are bogus and just 500th hand knowledge by this stage, I can't even get a consesous on what the flow rate on the stock VP injectors are as I have seen maybe 6 or different figures from high 17lb to high 20 ib. Even the flow rates for one of the most well known and used injectors the VT onward green 777 injectors I found was way off the mark to what they actually flow. Even on that link with the list, they come up as 14.5 lb, but if the stock VP ones are anything so go off, they are more like 21-22 lb, that is on the stock 3 bar VP reg btw, not the 3.5 bar the VT-VY run on.

I had the same issue with weeping injectors, I found 100% of the time when you get them ultrasonically cleaned, they weep. I suspect the ultra sound pits the pintal and seat, permanently damaging them, so I never get serviced injectors anymore for this reason, it creates the leaking issue, even if they never did in the first place. I had low K ones cleaned just coz, and it stuffed them and I had to bin them.

So I just use either brand new, or good used ones that look to have a good spray and call it a day.


The issue with new injectors are, many of the original ones are discontinued, so you must use a different one. The issue with that is, the flow rate as mentioned is a crap shot, this is easy to fix with just adjusting the injector flow rate value in the tune until the majority of the short term fuel trim returns to 0, which indicates that when in closed loop the actual fueling and expected fueling match and the flow rate is adjusted correctly

The other issue which is a harder one to deal with is the injector characteristics, you either need to pull them off another OEM tune that used your particular new injector from factory, or have that data generated by actually having the injectors run though a set of dead time and voltage tests. As far as I know, The1 on this forum does this, at the time he started there wasn't anyone in Aus doing that as far as my research went, but there maybe companes offering it now, but The1 does it spesifically on the Delco platform so the numbers will be right for our cars, so you can reach out and hopefully send your injectors to him and he will generate the OEM like table data that you can punch into the tune, you will also get the true flow rate too, so you can put that in and be much closer to a good starting point, I still tweak them as mentioned as there are always some variations from setup to setup.



I personally chucked in some used 777 injectors I had laying around into my VP, my OG injectors got trashed when my fuel filter element broke off inside the filter and thereby completely eliminating the filter entirely, with time, the grit and crud overroded my injector seats and they were damaged by the time I figured that out, leaked like the titanic and could not be saved. I got the used 777 back flowed them, cleaned the baskets etc... You can buy new basket and O ring kits for basic servicing. but mine back flowed fine, mine were laying around in the shed with dust all over and in them, so they needed the wash out.


I got the data for those out of one of the stock NA enhanced tunes and plugged that in, happy to give you that out of my 12p tune on my VP, I then reduced the flow rate in the tune by 15% as the 777 flowed way more than the stock 960s.

I also adjusted the cranking pulse tables to be that 15% less.


I believe the 777 are still available genuine brand new, there are tons of clones out there though. Genuine are around that 70-90 bucks each mark, the aftermarket clones are like that price for a full set or maybe a little more, certainly not anywhere near that each like genuine.

Regardless of that, my used 777s have been great for years now and probably over 100+ k of driving and I have no ideal on what Ks they had on them, they were junk left over from when I tried to attempt an ecotec swap but all of my donor engines had something wrong with them, and I realized the Buick actually went better anyway and was far tougher, so I pissed those engines off nearly a decade ago.

What Mace is selling is an unknown in my opinion, and way too many variables to try and figure out, and will cost you either way, and The1 has to charge for his time, equipment and experience naturally.

Hopefully that gives you some options to explore. There is always the used OG injectors too if you can find any. I had many and over the years used up a few of them to get me out of trouble, but recently I tossed them with heaps of other engine knickknacks to the tip as the property is being sold and I can't hoard this shit forever. I am at the point that I'd just get used from a later model with known data, or buy brand new genuine with either The1 doing the data or picking a known OEM injector, eg Ecotec ones, LS or something we have factory tunes I can copy the data from on this forum.

[antus]

Just note The1 isn't doing that anymore. When I did my last set of injectors he told me the kit was all packed up and that not possible.

[silentshout]

Very interesting thank you Vlad. The crazy part is the injectors we pulled out of the VP motor were the same 0 280 150 790 part number (Said on the side) and dimensionally they were nearly identical save for the injector portion. the MACE ones have some sort of shroud thingie where as the "OEM" (But not really as it turns out) ones looked different. Everyone keeps saying the factory VP injectors should be green, these ones were not green.

Pictures below:

[vlad01]

Never seen end caps like that before, if they are literally the same part number, then it's likely a clone of sorts and not actually made to the same spec.

[vlad01]

Just note The1 isn't doing that anymore. When I did my last set of injectors he told me the kit was all packed up and that not possible.

Well, that narrows it down to just getting the same known injectors we already have data on.

I would suggest 777s from a known good runner. They are usually plentiful which is why I think they are a good candidate for keeping these old car going.

[delcowizzid]

The mace injectors are a full plastic body .I seen a set the other day definitely not anything like genuine I told the customer to throw them in the bin and just run his og ones lol

[vlad01]

Mace are like what PEC on ebay were years ago, they sell everything now. So I am sure they sell many types of injectors that what you saw.

Mace aren't much of the home grown go fast bits maker they used to be. They have a full on warehouse store now, they were still operating out of their tin shed in a suburban house with presumably their dad helping last time I bought stuff in person. Things have changed a lot since then. They still make some products they were known for, but that is limited now and more of a general performance and replacement part warehouse now. I don't even know if they do the testing and validation of most of the stuff they sell now as they have a range that is so big that I would think that is unrealistic, not their core customers anymore anyway.

[vlad01]

I had a look on their site, there are heaps of different types for sale, and indeed these weird ones were listed as Holden injectors for these models.

[delcowizzid]

You only have to look at the price to know they are all non genuine lol ive dealt with there DI injectors too and their coils just a waste of money. The one and only product that was theirs for years was the manifold insulator for ecotec everything else is just a ticket clipping exersize lol