basics of tuning delco non $12p

General Tuning Questions And Discussions
Post Reply
sprattzvx
Posts: 200
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:29 pm
cars: Vxl67
Ke30 2door

basics of tuning delco non $12p

Post by sprattzvx »

ive got more questions (no surprise) thought id ask.
1.) with the table main spark adv vs rpm vs mg cy, how is this table affected by pe spark correction vs base time? as pe sp vs bs tm looks(?) to be adding spark the main spark table the longer pe is enabled where i wouldve thought it not safe to add this much advance.( am no doubt not understanding/missing something here)
2.) how do tables pe negative and positive spark corretion multiplier function?
what im trying to understand is how i can work exactly what advance the tune is commanding while in pe. im assuming to do this, i need to take the value from the main table and work out the additions and subtractions made by other tables such as the ones ive mentioned above. so for example, if i look at my log and @ 5000rpm @ 100% tps while flowing 850 mgc, my commanded spark at that time is say 12dg, i should be able to go through the relative tables ie spark vs coolant temp, and pe sprk vs time etc, and see exactly how the tune has calculated the commanded 12dg of timing. is this correct?
3.) basically exactly the same thing as above, but regarding a/f ratios while in pe/closed loop. but before i ask another epic bunch of questions about a/f ill see if anyone can take the time too explaine these spark related questions. IT WOULD BE HUGELY APPRECIATED
by many people getting a start im sure. :thumbup:
User avatar
Holden202T
Posts: 10394
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:05 pm
Location: Tenambit, NSW
Contact:

Re: basics of tuning delco non $12p

Post by Holden202T »

what car is this for ?
User avatar
VL400
Posts: 4991
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:54 pm
cars: VL Calais and Toyota Landcruiser. Plus some toys :)
Location: Perth, WA
Contact:

Re: basics of tuning delco non $12p

Post by VL400 »

Download the VT A5 zip from here .. https://pcmhacking.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=270

Has all the PE AFR and spark calcs :thumbup:
User avatar
krusty
Posts: 572
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:45 pm
cars: VY Calais guzzler, Toyota Corolla almost hybrid
Location: Melbourne, VIC

Re: basics of tuning delco non $12p

Post by krusty »

PE multipliers are pretty involved. Sometimes when starting out it may be easier to leave them alone and work on AFR. It's important that what the pcm is commanding and actual AFRs are similar if not the same (give or take 0.1 afr) at the start.

One thing to remember when adjusting things is that alot of parameters tie in to each other. this is why I'm still going with Kalmaker for my VY as there is so much going on that just isn't shown yet with TP. It's all there but I'm a long way from understanding how to adjust offsets and make those parameters available for logging and calibrating.

Basic changes like inj multiplier and spk vs rpm etc are reasonably flexible.

Main thing if you are logging and tuning RT is to disable BLM and corrections prior to getting into adjustments otherwise the pcm will start correcting what you have just done and it's easy to chase your tail and get no where fast.
sprattzvx
Posts: 200
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:29 pm
cars: Vxl67
Ke30 2door

Re: basics of tuning delco non $12p

Post by sprattzvx »

krusty wrote:PE multipliers are pretty involved. Sometimes when starting out it may be easier to leave them alone and work on AFR. It's important that what the pcm is commanding and actual AFRs are similar if not the same (give or take 0.1 afr) at the start.

One thing to remember when adjusting things is that alot of parameters tie in to each other. this is why I'm still going with Kalmaker for my VY as there is so much going on that just isn't shown yet with TP. It's all there but I'm a long way from understanding how to adjust offsets and make those parameters available for logging and calibrating.

Basic changes like inj multiplier and spk vs rpm etc are reasonably flexible.

Main thing if you are logging and tuning RT is to disable BLM and corrections prior to getting into adjustments otherwise the pcm will start correcting what you have just done and it's easy to chase your tail and get no where fast.
ha yeah its a bit of a mind-f&^k working out whats affecting what, but im 100% determined to work at least some of it out! the spreadsheet in the zip file vl linked is great, but im still confused how the final calc is achieved.
example:
my temp is cool temp is 80, so pe temp vs coolant base value = 14.250
5200 rpm, so pe rpm multiplier = 1.203
foot flat, so pe tps multiplier = 0.055
feeding it for around 10 seconds, so pe time multplier = 1.047
but at this time in my data log, the commanded a/f ratio is 11.3 (which is exactly what the wideband shows) so how, using these perameters, is the 11.3 the commanded ratio? :study:
with the multipliers, what exactly do they multiply?
on another note, why does the bubble never leave the first 50mc column when datatracing regardless of tps etc?(main spark advan vs mc vs rpm)
and why is it that open loop a/f ratio vs mgc vs rpm only goes to 4800 rpm?
if anyone knows much about these things, input would be great. :?:
User avatar
VL400
Posts: 4991
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:54 pm
cars: VL Calais and Toyota Landcruiser. Plus some toys :)
Location: Perth, WA
Contact:

Re: basics of tuning delco non $12p

Post by VL400 »

So it would calculate out at .... 14.250/1.203/1.047+0.055 = 11.36AFR - not far off your actual from the logs :thumbup:

14.25 is the base AFR which all the multipliers are applied to.


You probably need to link the ADX and XDF data items. TP needs to know the type of data in the table (edit the XDF table, and under each axis there is a data type), and then edit the ADX to change the item (say airflow) to the same type of data.
sprattzvx
Posts: 200
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:29 pm
cars: Vxl67
Ke30 2door

Re: basics of tuning delco non $12p

Post by sprattzvx »

VL400 wrote:So it would calculate out at .... 14.250/1.203/1.047+0.055 = 11.36AFR - not far off your actual from the logs :thumbup:

14.25 is the base AFR which all the multipliers are applied to.


You probably need to link the ADX and XDF data items. TP needs to know the type of data in the table (edit the XDF table, and under each axis there is a data type), and then edit the ADX to change the item (say airflow) to the same type of data.
Yep vl that formula works for me. I think what is confusing is the tables are named "multiplier" which is a little misleading.
With that calc, in preference to a string calc, you divide the base af of 14.250 by 1.203, and the result of this then gets divided by 1.047, this final divided number then gains 0.055 for a final figure 11.36.
So, basically, this is the a way of making smallish adjustments of wot a a/f.
What krusty said about tp not having all perameters, i cant find any accel enleanment settings. Ive noted a trend in my logs, when i lift of the pedal quick and a/f drops suddenly i get some k/r. This is pretty consistent, so by my way of thinking if could access this setting i could back of the enleanment value so as to make the drop in a/f ratio less drastic it might eliminate the k/r.

Speaking of knock retard the k/r can usually be seen as identical drop in spark advance, ive noticed that at times when running the spark advance line and k/r line in the same monitor, the registered k/r is not affecting the advance at all. Is this some kind of torque management that registers as k/r?

Vl400, in the xdf editor theres an option to explicitly link the xdf with the adx, will the values still need to be manually matched if i use this function?
Thanks.
User avatar
VL400
Posts: 4991
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:54 pm
cars: VL Calais and Toyota Landcruiser. Plus some toys :)
Location: Perth, WA
Contact:

Re: basics of tuning delco non $12p

Post by VL400 »

Yeah I think its just the way the calcs are setup it could also be written as 14.250 * 0.8312 * 0.9550 + 0.055 = 11.36AFR by using the reciprocal to make it a multiply (1/1.203=0.8312)



This is what needs to be setup. On the left is the XDF item (select the table and press F2), under the column and row setup you must match the Data Type and Stock Units to the ADX setup for the two axis. To change the ADX select Aquisition and then edit definition, under the values heading you can find what items are logged. So for the RPM vs Airflow table choose engine RPM and make the Data Type and Stock Units the same as your XDF item rows, then find the MAF airflow item and match the Data Type and Stock Units to the XDF column settings.
Data Tracing Setup.jpg
Data Tracing Setup.jpg (200 KiB) Viewed 7925 times
User avatar
delcowizzid
Posts: 5632
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:38 pm
Location: Wellington NZ
Contact:

Re: basics of tuning delco non $12p

Post by delcowizzid »

any knock retard on decel will be fake its damn hard to make a car detonate with low decell cylinder pressure
If Its Got Gas Or Ass Count Me In.if it cant be fixed with a hammer you have an electrical problem
sprattzvx
Posts: 200
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:29 pm
cars: Vxl67
Ke30 2door

Re: basics of tuning delco non $12p

Post by sprattzvx »

delcowizzid wrote:any knock retard on decel will be fake its damn hard to make a car detonate with low decell cylinder pressure
yep i understand low cyl pressure is unlikey to knock, just have this annoying thing going on that goes like this: accelerate hard for a few seconds, no knock, then directly after i get of it then lean back on slightly likely 10% to resume light cruise i get knock retard. this continues for a minute or so then stops. but each time i go hard its this exact same thing. this is under very light throttle like for example when you change speed zones and back of then resume for the lower speed, but only after a squirt. ive heard talk of wasted spark function?
if you can be stuffed checking this short log youll see kr im on about occurs at around 8.20 and 8.36 when resuming cruise after the squirt around 7.43.
pod.xdl
(337.53 KiB) Downloaded 438 times
regards to the tuning basics topic, my shift changes where real soft and fair whack of slip, s0 i did this: increase line pressure by 3 psi across the board and 4 psi at 100% tps.
i wasnt sure if this would be noticeable really just testing the waters, but it feels far better shifts more positive every where. is this a safe level of increase? the hsv cars ive driven with these trans shift pretty hard, do they have a different servo, or just more line pressure and doctored tps threshold for shifts?
Post Reply