E85, Fuel Lines & Hoses

[HQ355]

I ran VZ rubber mount and bracket for fuel lines, I got the last ones holden had in stock as well, could probably get 2nd hand ones from wreckers there a nice universal mount style

[Gareth]

We just had an F100 engineered at work with speedflow 200 series fuel lines from front to rear, there is a spec for securing clamps and the maximum distance apart they can be, check out 'VSI 8' on the vicroads website, that should answer most questions you have.

As for the size of lines required, there is a formula for the required weight of fuel required to make X amount of horse power, haven't looked at this in years, im sure a quick net search will provide answers on this.

I have a HQ tonner with a 600ish HP engine that has excess fuel running through 3/8 lines... (Running MSD fuel injection)

Hope that helps

[HQ355]

Is that f100 finished ? I'm not normaly a fan of them but that one is nice !

[Gareth]

Will be registered next week, so yeah, very close

[HQ355]

Good job mate !

[Chuff]

I don't know if braided hose is legal, I'd be checking it's e-85 compatible

Everything I've read points to the stainless steel braided PTFE hose being the one to use for E85, from a usage point of view, not a legal one. That's the bit I'm unsure about. The E85 rubber hoses, more often than not, will have a disclaimer recommending the PTFE hose be used instead for E85. Doesn't make sense to me why you'd call it E85 compatable, and then recommend the PTFE stuff, but that's what I keep reading in the manufacturer's own catalogues.

I'd probably use stainles hard line as the others would probably corrode if using e-85

Corrosion won't be a problem with stainless tubing.

How much hp do you think the motor will make ? That will determine line size and pump size, don't forget it's not a good idea to go to big on pump size either as they just recirculate the fuel around the system and heat it up and there generally noisier as well. I'm running a VL turbo pump on my 355 in my Q an it's keeping up fine so far with about 350hp and std 8mm fuel line

No idea on HP. I'm not a numbers man. I'm more of a "seat of the pants" sort of bloke, and that's the best way to be with boost. I've run this turbo system previously in a blow though set-up with an in-cabin regulator controlling boost via the external wastegate and would max it out at 18 PSI when turbo surge kicked in. Had no fuel problems with the Camira fuel pump whatsoever, but this will be my first venture into EFI, and fuel pressures are higher. With the carbie set-up fuel pressure was regulated to 5 PSI over boost, so the fuel system pretty much only ever saw 23ish PSI max and that was using the original piss-ass plastic/nylon tubing as discussed in my original post.

I've seen braid passed when used for appropriate conditions a few times now first hand. Such as from hard line to a fuel rail and from a pump to hard line. But like all engineers they all have there own interpretation's. There is ethanol compatible braid and stainless seems to hold up fine.

With regards to the AN fittings for the hard line or hose ends, will the anodised aluminium stuff be OK for E85 and road use, or should I be looking at something else? If I'm going to be using stainless steel hard line, should I also use stainless steel AN fittings, or is it OK to mix and match?

There is some neat rubber mounts for the hard line not sure what they're called. But the engineer has spec'd a maximum space for for the fixings on my mates car's.

I've found lots of mounts to choose from so that won't be a problem. Regarding the spacing of the mounts for the hard line, does anyone what what the legal requirements are regarding min and/or max distances between mounts?

Thanks.

Chuff

[Chuff]

Lots of good information here. Thanks Biggvl.

We just had an F100 engineered at work with speedflow 200 series fuel lines from front to rear

That's what I want to hear because I'd much rather get hose throughout than have all the additional hardware and joins associated with having a hard line in the middle. Lots less joins means lots less places for problems.

there is a spec for securing clamps and the maximum distance apart they can be, check out 'VSI 8' on the vicroads website, that should answer most questions you have.

Thankyou.

As for the size of lines required, there is a formula for the required weight of fuel required to make X amount of horse power, haven't looked at this in years, im sure a quick net search will provide answers on this.

Will be Googling shortly.

I have a HQ tonner with a 600ish HP engine that has excess fuel running through 3/8 lines... (Running MSD fuel injection)

Hope that helps

Yeh. I'd rather use 3/8 if I can, and if you can get 600 HP using it, then my little 2.0 Litre might be OK. I'll decide once I find the formula you mention above.

Thanks.

Chuff

[Dylan]

There is a spec for the anodised fittings for ethanol. But on petrol the anodised hold up fine coupled to the stainless.

[Gareth]

then my little 2.0 Litre might be OK

your little 2.0lt becomes a 6.0lt engine at 28psi

for every atmosphere (14ish psi) you add, you double the capacity of the engine, so 14X2=28psi so 2.0lt X 3=6.0lt.... ( the times three comes from twice atmosphere and atmosphere itself) cool hey...

[Chuff]

So I went scouring the net for solutions and found the following formula and online Fuel Line Calculator: https://www.lmengines.com/fuel-line-calculators/

But in order to complete the calculation I needed to know expected Fuel usage (Lbs/Hr). This is when I fell into the "Google Hole". I've got 3 rows of tabs open in Firefox working out everything from expected HP figures for ULP & E85 for varying boost values, formulas to calculate fuel consumptions and pump flow capacities in Litres/Hr, Lbs/Hr, Litres/min, then start again for the Gallon equivalent, and don't forget to take into account Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC), Brake Mean Effective Pressure (BMEP) and finally what size injectors to use in order to determine cc/min flow requirements, for both ULP & E85, and of course the Lbs/Hr conversion needed by some sites, but not others.

Basically, all the shit I really wanted to avoid in the first place. Anyhoo...

Using my 3 rows of open tabs in Firefox I did some math and came up with the numbers I required, and then I scoured Google looking for confirmation that I was on the right track and I stumbled across this page: http://www.enginelogics.com/fuel-pump-sizing/. It summarises much of the calculations I went through and then applies them against a high boost turbocharged 4 cylinder 2.0 Litre engine. Perfect!

Eventually I plugged in the appropriate values in the Fuel Line Calculator and the figures comparing the different Hose ID values between 3/8" & 1/2" (AN -6 & -8) makes me comfortable that 3/8" fuel lines will be sufficient for my requirements whether I choose to run ULP or E85.

I've also learnt a bit about fuel pumps, their pressures & flows, and am now confident that the standard Camira fuel pump should also be more than capable of provide sufficient volume and pressure.

One final hic-up, possibly. The Camira fuel pump has standard hose fittings either end, a 12mm inlet & 8mm outlet. My plan was to run E85 rated rubber hose from the tank to the pump and from the pump to the filter. These would be short length of rubber hose (4 inches) held on by EFI rated fuel hose clamps x 2 at all points. The filter would be fitted with a barb fitting on the inlet and an AN fitting on the outlet and then AN fittings & 3/8" Stainless Steel PTFE hose for the remainder of the fuel system, including the return line. I'm thinking this rubber section might fail engineering, and I'm going to have to bite the bullet and buy a pump allowing AN fittings to be connected directly.

Thanks.

Chuff