E85, Fuel Lines & Hoses

[Chuff]

Hey All,

Imagine if you will that you have a 2.0 Litre 4 cylinder engine, a 1227165 ECU fitted with an Antus NVRAM, a complete Camira EFI system (loom, sensors, pump, etc...), a D1927A module to convert to 4 cylinder coil packs, a 14Point7 WideBand O2 Sensor, a factory EFI manifold for the intake side and a Garrett T03 hanging off the exhaust side.

Now imagine crawling under the car you wish to install all these goodies into and all that exists between the fuel tank at the back and the carbie which currently resides in the front is a piss-ass little black plastic/nylon tube with a Faucet pump in the middle.

Can you see my dilemma?

I've been scouring the web for far too long now trying to establish what are the best/legal/safest options available for building a complete fuel systems for a Carb to EFI conversion for a Club Reg vehicle in Victoria with the intention of running E85 under boost conditions, and to be honest with you, my head hurts.

After all that I have considered I'm not sure whether to run hard lines or hose, and regardless of which way I go, I end up having further options of what types to use.

If I wish to use a hard line, what should I choose? Aluminium, stainless steel, bundy tube? Any other options that I've missed? Each seems to have there own pros & cons.

If I went with hose, would I go with a stainless steel braided PTFE inner lined hose like Aeroflow's 200 Series, or is something like Aeroflow's 400 Series Push Lock Hose with suitable hose ends sufficient for E85 throughout the whole car? Is it even legally allowed to run solely EFI hose all the way on a road registered car or am I required to run a hard line?

Then there's the question of what size to get. I'm thinking 3/8 inch would be sufficient to supply enough E85 at 28 PSI boost in a 4 cylinder, or should I go up a size?

And one final thought. I have read of circumstances where fuel pressure can drop in the fuel rail under high boost conditions due to the large pulse width used by the injectors and that this can be remedied by replacing the single entry point into the fuel rail at one end and exit at the other with an entry into each end of the fuel rail with a central exit point? Should I be considering this, or am I unlikely to have a problem?

Thanks for all your input.

Chuff

[HQ355]

Using rubber the whole length is illegal in vic, I'd use any of the hard lines that you mentioned if they are compatible with e-85, just make sure you put the barb on the end of the lines so the hose dosnt come off. You can buy the tool that does that off eBay if you don't have one or can't borrow one, good luck !

[Chuff]

Using rubber the whole length is illegal in vic, I'd use any of the hard lines that you mentioned if they are compatible with e-85, just make sure you put the barb on the end of the lines so the hose dosnt come off. You can buy the tool that does that off eBay if you don't have one or can't borrow one, good luck !

Thanks for your reply HQ355.

You say using rubber the whole length is illegal in Victoria. Is the problem the rubber, or the hose?

If I were to use hose, I would definitely be using a stainless steel braided PTFE inner lined hose like Aeroflow's 200 Series. Is that legal, because it's not rubber, or illegal because it's a hose? I'm not arguing for the sake of it. At this stage I'm leaning towards PTFE hose throughout.

As for the barb on the end of a hard line, my plans were to run AN fittings throughout. Base fuel pressure + boost pressure increase will mean running higher fuel pressures and I don't have faith in barbs & hose clamps.

So is it legal/safe to run PTFE throughout, including the return, or do I have to use a hard line?

Thanks.

Chuff

[Dylan]

Ive had a few mates do through engineering. Majority hard line minimal flex. Including brade.
Only flexi line where needed. Joining from body to motor or between rails. From tank to hard line.

Running half inch seems most comon. Some people do 3/8 return. Stainless is popular and not very expensive.

AN fittings on all joins. And a rising rate fuel reg and all will be good for boost. So long as the pump is up to it.

[Chuff]

Ive had a few mates do through engineering. Majority hard line minimal flex. Including brade.
Only flexi line where needed. Joining from body to motor or between rails. From tank to hard line.

Running half inch seems most comon. Some people do 3/8 return. Stainless is popular and not very expensive.

AN fittings on all joins. And a rising rate fuel reg and all will be good for boost. So long as the pump is up to it.

Thanks Dylan. Cleared up a lot with regards to what materials to use.

With regards to the size, does it really need 1/2 inch? It's only a 2.0 Litre 4 cylinder. I'm not sure if it matters, and maybe someone could please clarify if for me, but do pump requirements change with an increase in tube size? Will there be a drop in pressure or volume, thereby requiring a pump upgrade? I'm hoping to use the original Camira fuel pump, which is a VL Turbo Commodore pump, or will it not be up to the task? It's ACDElco part number EP102AU rated at 2.4 l/min @ 200 KPA. Maximum pressure of 700 KPA.

Regardless of size, rule of thumb is as much stainless steel hard line as possible, combined with the shortest length of PTFE hoses fitted with AN fittings throughout and it should pass scrutiny with any engineer, assuming the installation is done correctly and securely.

What about my fuel rail? Should I consider converting to dual entry/single exit, or will the standard in-one-end, out-the-other be OK considering the additional fuel requirements due to boost pressure and E85's 30% extra volume in order to maintain correct AFR?

Thanks.

Chuff

[Dylan]

Size is your call I'm not familiar with boost. Single in and out on the rail will be fine. As for the line size oversize wont be a problem but undersize will be.
Guess it comes down to horsepower. I bet there's some 2 litre motors out there pushing massive numbers.

Don't forget the extra volume for ethanol.

[Chuff]

Size is your call I'm not familiar with boost. Single in and out on the rail will be fine. As for the line size oversize wont be a problem but undersize will be.
Guess it comes down to horsepower. I bet there's some 2 litre motors out there pushing massive numbers.

Don't forget the extra volume for ethanol.

Thanks. 1/2" it is then. If the pump can handle it, better to be oversized than undersized as you say.

[HQ355]

I don't know if braided hose is legal, I'd be checking it's e-85 compatible, I'd probably use stainles hard line as the others would probably corrode if using e-85. How much hp do you think the motor will make ? That will determine line size and pump size, don't forget it's not a good idea to go to big on pump size either as they just recirculate the fuel around the system and heat it up and there generally noisier as well. I'm running a VL turbo pump on my 355 in my Q an it's keeping up fine so far with about 350hp and std 8mm fuel line

[vlad01]

Should have no probs with corrosion. Pump and race e85 are normally to good standards and contain anti-corrosion additives.

According to sucrogen's site the fuel they supply to v8 super cars and such is also available in some caltex servos. This stuff has anti-corrosion additives.

As for rubber hoses, gates do ethanol grade hoses. Injectors o rings and such should be fine as they are viton, resistant to all that.

[Dylan]

I've seen braid passed when used for appropriate conditions a few times now first hand. Such as from hard line to a fuel rail and from a pump to hard line. But like all engineers they all have there own interpretation's. There is ethanol compatible braid and stainless seems to hold up fine.

There is some neat rubber mounts for the hard line not sure what they're called. But the engineer has spec'd a maximum space for for the fixings on my mates car's.