Another 202 delco conversion thread....

[Bomber Watson]

Gday guys,

New to this forum, and first post.

Sorry to jump strait in with stupid questions, but i spent a while scanning through the current content and sadly although i learnt a lot theres still a few outstanding questions that i have.

Now, im just doing some ground work on a looong term project that i have recently started

Basically its a 202 with a BA XR6T head.



Very early stages yet but it looks simple enough to get going. If anyones interested i will keep you all informed with progress.

To add a bit of spice to it i have a nice little snail to go on it



Now i have been tossing up/doing my head in as to what kind of ignition and induction to run, the engine WILL NOT have the standard distributor as it wont have the holden cam.

Early ideas was a holden six dizzy ran off one of the cams, with msd gear controling it, and either mechy fuel injection or a big f*ck off 4bbl...But i've been thinking coil packs would be better for the ignition side, and perhaps EFI for the induction.

Now, the reason im HERE. I have a 97 VS acclaim that im about to start wreaking, remembering how tuneable delcos apparently are i thought i may be able to pinch all the gear from that.

But thus far off these forums i have picked up that the computer in the VS is likely not suitable for this application, and i want an 808, correct??

Will i be able to steal the crank angle sencor, coil packs, and all that kinda fruit off the VS? Or is all this different?

And is the wiring loom of any use to me at all?

The Barra head has cam angle sencors on the ends of the cams, does anyone know if these will work with a delco?

Grafting a crank angle sensor onto it wont be to much effort, i've kinda worked out how im going to run a harmonic balancer, cam belt pulley and external oil pump and perhaps fuel pump pulleys off the crank snub, so whats one more thing to try to graft on??

My next question is boost. Now your all going to laugh, but im trying to plan this engine with a maximum of about 2 bar, or 30psi in mind. Will the map function on the 808 cope with that??

Also i was intending to run methanol, what dramas is this going to cause?? Really unsure if i should go EFI for the fuel system, as by the time i buy pumps/injectors etc capable of supporting the kind of hp i have in mind its going to end up rather expensive, when i can just get a 750 dp holley, boost reference it (i've done a few) and probably run it off an Enderley 80 A pump i have laying around.....

The other thing i thought of is just using a delco to run the ignition and relying on something more basic for the fuel. That way i can have my lovely coil packs and tunable ignition way cheaper than any other method i can think of. Is it possible to run a 808 with just the ignition side? Will the VS computer work for this to? And what sensors will i need for that??

Thats about all the real stupid questions for now, sure i'll thik of more later haha.

Im a lot better with mechanicals and making shit fit than i am with computers, so please bare with me guys!!

Cheers.

[Jayme]

frankenmarriage of ford and holden, can't decide if im repulsed or impressed!

for the amount of boost and methanol youd need injectors that are probably bigger than the biggest high impedance injectors so (and I feel sick for saying this) I have a feeling the carb for fuelling would be the most cost effective option. use a delco 808 for spark, can even use coilpacks with a simple crank trigger. see https://pcmhacking.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=128 its no different to how the LPG guys do it, spark only.

I reckon you can use an 808 with $12p and a 3 bar map sensor (misleading, it does 1 bar vacuum and 2 bar boost so 3 bar) and you can have a full electronic ignition map. if that frankenengine works its gonna be a beast of a 202

[Bomber Watson]

Awesome, now im more confused then ever. I'll re read the thread again and do some more looking around before i ask anything really really stupid, like, duh, whats a $12p lol.

Surely thats on here somehwere...

Cheers.

[VL400]

Wow thats a serious undertaking for the poor old 202, 30 psi on a 202 is a crapload of boost for it! Like Jayme though I am a little unsure what to make of it, some fellas over here in the west ran a twin cam head on an early ford block in a Torana, this is a whole new level!

$12P is this .. https://pcmhacking.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=356 . A modified binary for the 808 to support all sorts of mods including boost.

[ejukated]

I've seen a guy working on the same setup in south sydney, I'm not sure what he eneded up doing for the cam drive. Apparenly only one head stud is slightly out? Looks like an interesting project!

[Holden202T]

out of interest, how much work is involved in making the head fit ? i know alot of the older heads that people put on were an absolute shitfight and 90% custom everything.

[Bomber Watson]

Cheers VL400, that is one more piece to the puzzle.

I have another stupid question before i go into a long winded rant answering Holden202. The crank trigger wheel on the thread Jayme linked, could i do something like that on the flexplate instead? So just drill holes at TDC then 60 deg apart then one 10 after tdc? Is there a specific distance it has to be from the crank centerline? what size would the holes need to be? The diagram specifies 1/8" wide and 1/4" deep slots approximately, so would 1/4" holes work? The diagram also specifies these are 2" from the crankshaft centerline, but i will need them more like 5" from the centerline for this to work. Only real difference i can see this will make is the velocity the holes move past the center will be faster and the exposure time will be shorter, so perhaps the holes would need to be bigger??

Just asking as this would be a lot more convenient for me, and also i would prefer to take it from the rear of the crank which doesnt seem to move around so much on a holden six. And no offence to Apples, but i dont like the idea of milling the holes directly into the balancer, not only will this send it out of balance but the balancer also moves around somewhat, sometimes up to 2 degrees, and i woudl think this would basically eliminate the benefit of a more accurate ignition system......

Sadly the wiring diagrams on the link Jayme put up may as well be in chineese and drawn on a napkin for all i can make of it. So would someone mind explaining that a bit more??

TBH guys i dont really know what to make of this project either, it just sounded like a fun idea. I kinda feel a touch strange calling it a 202, as the block and crank are likely the only holden parts im going to be using, at what point does it stop being something??

Yeah 30psi is a bit on the extreme side, but i have kind of worked out some basic specks i would like to achieve, and im trying to set everything up for a bit more. For instance i'll probably only be running about 25psi, but may wish to wind it up to 30. Same with the kind of hp level im using to work out fuel system requirements. The goal is 3hp per cube, and i believe thats very acheiveable, but im working fuel system requirements out on about 7-800hp, just so i know its all sufficient.

ejukated, mate i may know of the one your talking about. Theres three people working on this setup atm to my knowlege, including me. Each with different ideas as to what they wish to achieve, and afaik im the only one who wishes to add boost to one. Im the least advanced thus far lol. But i only started on it a little while ago, and atm its mostly research/component sourcing.

Holden202, mate it looks easy enough to me. But that said as above the simplest of wiring diagrams confuse the shit out of me, so i suppose its what your good at.

BAsically where im at so far. Putting a head gasket on the head is promising. The bore spacing is almost the same, about 2mm differnce over the lengh, so #1 and #6 are offset about 1mm, and #2 and #4 are offset about .5mm. Thats by eye. Not enough difference to matter me thinks.

XR6 falcons run a 3.62" bore, sound familiar? So the chamber size is correct.

The thing you have to work out is if you wish to modify the block to suit or modify the head. As i can weld alloy and i believe i will be replacing the block more often than the head i decided the head should get modified. I was erring towards modding the block as i thought you couldnt get a mls head gasket for a 202, but you can for a barra, but i have found out theres a lad making them for a 202 now so that basically confirmed it in my mind.

Next thing is all the water ports are almost in the same spot, but sadly not quiet enough. So im just going to either weld or grub screw the ports in the head. The holes are oval, but there sould be enough room to drill them out to about 3/8" npt and just grub screw them. The rear jackets are kinda in the same spot/shape, a bit of a weld up and reshape should be sufficent for them.

All the bolt holes bar four line up. Two almost line up. Two are no where near. The ones that almost line up a quick skim of one side on the mill should be sufficient, the ones that come no where near i intend to just run a cutter on the mill down the side of the head on the centerline of where the hole needs to be, then turn up some alloy bushes and weld these in for the new bolt holes. I'll turn up an alloy plug to plug the un needed holes.

The other option is metal stitching the block, but that sounds to hard.

The oil return from the head actually hangs off the side of the block, which is convenient, although i havent entirely worked out how im going to fix this yet. Either weld up the holes, or run a mill along it and take say 10mm off along the side of the head then weld a bit of 3mm plate over this part, so its stepped, i havnt decided yet. Then i'll run external returns. Simple lol.

The oil feed for the head is fed through one of the head studs on the falcon, conveniently one of the ones that will be plugged so this will also plug the feed. The other one is in the side of the head, which will be conveniently blocked when i fill up the return holes. The two main galleys run right along the head, and have two welsh plugs at the back. I'll just run some -4 lines from the pressure side of the oil pump up to these externally.

As far as locating the head, after a lot of procastinating i've decided just to use the holden dowels, i'll just drill these in.

Thats about all thats required to get the head fitting, now how about working i hear you ask.

For the cam drive i intend to steal one of the other lads idea and convert it to belt drive using gates 8mm pitch x 30mm wide pulleys, i will make up some cam extensions to fit these to the cams and move them foward a bit, how much im not sure yet. I'll make up an alloy front cover for the head to hold oil seals behind the pulleys. Thats a touch up in the air as i want some form of individual adjustablity of the cam timing, i need to wait till i get the pulleys to see if i can modify them to be adjustable, if not i may end up finding some aftermarket adjustable gears off a toyota jz series or similar and fitting these instead.

As far as the crank goes, again steal another lads idea, make up a plate to cover the timing case area, and put a seal in this so its directly against the block. Machine the crank snub down so its all the same dia, as it steps up a few thou where the timing gear sits on. I'll sit a balancer with an oil seal boss, unsure which balancer i'll be using yet, up against the block, then a cam drive pulley infront of that. I will likely have to make up a snub bush to fit over the crank snub and hold the balancer, cam pulley, a pulley for the oil pump or dry sump pump, whichever i choose to run, and one for the fuel pump. I'll use a bolt to hold this all on.

After that its just going through the holden block blocking off everything you dont need, ie the cam oil feeds from the crank tunnel, the timing gear squirter feed, i'll need to make up dummy lifters to sit in the lifter bores to seal them as well.

The other option is it seems you can mill the holden cam gear down to about half thickness, and locate a cam drive cog on the crank infront of it to run the cams. Again take the holden cam gear down to half thickness. Apparently this fits inside the holden timing cover Then you can run a holden cam just to spin the dizzy and oil pump, and make up dummy lifters to seal the galleys. Cut and shunt the timing cover with the ford front cover and wala. That idea sounds perhaps a touch easyer but not really what im chasing.

I'll probably extend the front plate that covers the timing cover area so it covers the water pump area as well and just weld a -16 npt fitting on there, and run an electric water pump.

PCV will be taken from theh side plates and the rocker cover, unless i go dry sump....thats up in the air seeing if a cheap 3 stage dry sump setup comes up between now and then. Sadly i missed out on one at an absolute bargain of a price recently so a bit bummed over that.

Thats basically it, like i said pretty easy. If you wished to make one of these to run on petrol and with limited boost or na, you could easily use the original inlet manifold. Same as you can buy some pretty awesome off the shelf exhaust manifolds etc. Though again i'll probably make both of these, mostly because im a tight ass lol.

And yeah thats about it. The stock head flows about the same as a Jzed, and thats the reason im doing this. I have a mate building up a Jzed headed gt-51 fed 202 and i want to try to make the same kinda power he is cheaper lol. Cylinder head alone im over 6k infront so im doing well so far......

Cheers.

[lui15]

new to this forum & first post !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! still speachless

[Bomber Watson]

Haha cheers man, only a day newer than me......

Refrain your speachlessness untill it actually works :p

Cheers.

[Holden202T]

well the fitting of the head sounds like al ot less work than the older heads are so thats a good start, i think the majority of the issues is in the timing but i'm sure you'll work it out

let the fun begin!