F1 Technologies

[Jayme]

was just reading up on the Merc winning by over 30 seconds and how other teams want rules changed to make it more competitive. came across this:
http://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/car/pu106a-hybrid/


totally boggles the mind.... imagine the computer control required to keep all those systems in sync.... no more turbo wastegate... lets put a generator on the shaft and when the boost pressure is too high, just pull more power from the generator to bring shaft speed down.... in the rules.... no limits on how much energy you can recover from the turbo and put in your energy storage, thats probably a big reason they are so much faster.

[immortality]

Yep, amazing technology, unfortunately it sounds like crap.

Mercedes have definitely a much more optimised power unit than the other teams.

I'm not certain but I think that all teams are limited how much they can alter/develop their power units from the original design, basically put, once it was designed and built it's what you have and are stuck with until the next power unit evolution. Merc have an advantage until such time occurs.

I think it all comes back the cost saving initiatives, if teams aren't developing engines through the whole season you're saving money.

It's all quiet interesting because they are also limited in how much fuel they can burn during a race so engine mapping becomes very important in conjunction with kinetic energy use/recovers and heat energy recovery and getting it all to work together. Limited fuel usage means you can't just keep dumping fuel/heat into the turbo to increase heat energy recovery.

edit:It gets even more interesting when you think that it also involves the braking system, the kinetic energy recovery system works in conjunction with the rear brakes but you also need to maintain brake balance. One has to wonder how the rear brakes function is controlled when you have both the more traditional brake rotor/calliper as well as the kinetic energy recovery system which must all be balanced with the front brakes to maintain an over braking balance between the front and rear wheels.

Kinda interesting thinking about it, you could use a limited size kinetic energy recovery system and have to let the traditional brakes do the rest (to maintain over all brake balance) or more interesting would be to have a smaller traditional brake package in the rear and a much larger kinetic energy recovery system and any excess electrical load in excess of the rule limit is wasted as heat.....

[antus]

Yeah but there is a limit to how much you can recover from braking, hence the novel idea of recovering it from the turbo. great idea, I think. whether you like it or not, the sport is pushing technological development, the way it should be.

[immortality]

It's governed by rules how much energy can be recovered/used from the kinetic energy recovery system.

The heat recovery is unlimited however you can only burn a certain amount of fuel so there is a limited amount of heat available as well.

Makes it an interesting proposition when all teams have the same amount of fuel and yet Mercedes are noticeably quicker. Turbo shaft speed is also limited to 125,000rpm

[Jayme]

So much room for cheating...... all it takes is a few bodgey lines of code that governs the energy recovery or delivery and u are over the rules and have an advantage. How will abyone ever know? I know there are fuel flow meters on the fuel lines but are there energy flow meters on the wires?

[TdracerTd]

I like that they are pushing technological limits with the new engines, but I would like to see the rules go- limit on fuel usage, limit on capacity and limit on revs. Also all the energy should come from the fuel, so no pre charging of batteries/ energy storage devices. The let them go at it and let them have unlimited engines and allow them to develop the engines as required. That will push the boundaries of technology and allow the other teams to catch up. Where they should be more restricted is in the aero area. I think technology there is pretty good and very well developed. The limiting factor as far as downforce is the rules, ie dimensions and envelopes of aerodynamic elements. I would like to see ground effect make a return, as this would allow the cars to run closer together and promote better racing. They should also impose rules relating to the turbulent air behind the cars. A lot of development has gone into spoiling the air behind so a competitor has a harder time making a pass.

[vlad01]

but having the rules there is what drives the innovating new technologies for difficult challenges such as efficiency.

F1 has been an efficiency race since the 80s. Basically, rules limit fuel, engine size, down force etc.. and is ever decreasing each session to make it harder, and the engineers have to come up with new ways of getting more efficiency from what they have to push the envelope of racing.

if it was free for all, engineers would become lazy and take the easy way out and just make everything bigger and more fuel hungry lol.

[TdracerTd]

Yep. I agree. I said there should be a limit on fuel, but how you extract the power/efficiency out of said amount of fuel should be free. It needs to be entertaining. The other problem is the way things are now, if you are a manufacturer and not Mercedes, I think you would be thinking very seriously about how long you want to be made to eat humble pie, as the rules don't allow them to improve their product.

It looks like Renault are on the way out as things stand, and so far the Honda effort appears to be a disaster, with no immediate solution. I hope I'm wrong and they do come up with a timely solution, but I think the odds are stacked against them.

[immortality]

So much room for cheating...... all it takes is a few bodgey lines of code that governs the energy recovery or delivery and u are over the rules and have an advantage. How will abyone ever know? I know there are fuel flow meters on the fuel lines but are there energy flow meters on the wires?

Heat -energy recovery is unlimited so no issues there. Also, they are limited to how big there energy storage system is. System can be no larger than 25kg or lighter than 20kg so that in itself is a limiting factor unless someone has developed a much more radical battery.....

Energy recovery has been around for a few years now so everybody would be well aware off how these systems are monitored.

F1 is fairly stringent when it comes to rules and trying to bend em. A good and bad example is the Red Bull blown rear diffuser and how they were changing the engine mapping during qualifying to increase rear down force by keeping the engine revs up. No rule against a blown rear diffuser, however the rules were clear that you couldn't change the engine mapping from qualifying to race configuration. First they ruled against Red Bull but they lobbied and cried how it would adversely effect their performance and eventually F1 officials changed the rules. The other teams who raised the issue were not impressed.

[immortality]

Yep. I agree. I said there should be a limit on fuel, but how you extract the power/efficiency out of said amount of fuel should be free. It needs to be entertaining. The other problem is the way things are now, if you are a manufacturer and not Mercedes, I think you would be thinking very seriously about how long you want to be made to eat humble pie, as the rules don't allow them to improve their product.

It looks like Renault are on the way out as things stand, and so far the Honda effort appears to be a disaster, with no immediate solution. I hope I'm wrong and they do come up with a timely solution, but I think the odds are stacked against them.

Yep, and it's worse this year as I believe each driver is limited to 5 power units before penalties are applied. Last year it was 8 and by the looks of things about half the field of cars have already used up 1 PU at the Aussie GP.

Unfortunately it's not uncommon in F1 for one team to find that certain something that makes them markedly quicker than the other teams, unfortunately with the cost saving initiatives it really prevents the other teams from further development to try and make up that performance gap.