Immortalities totally random thread

[immortality]

Well it's been a few days and although it drives fine it's definitely lost some spark! throttle response isn't quiet the same as the standard plugs. Hopefully pull some plugs later today and decide on what we do next.

On a sour note, I left both my spare memcals in my pants pocket and they got washed I've left them out to dry for a week now but not sure if they will be ok or not?

[shadetreemechanic]

Been busy doing little jobs around the house and neglecting the cars, but the Calais needed some loving so it got it's 240,000km service this week (only 1800km late) with some Penrite 15w-40 full zinc mineral oil. It seems to be working even at 12,000km the engine was still quiet like the day I filled it and on the first start after the oil change no lifter noise

Hope I don't start an oil war in your thread here but i'm surprised you're running mineral for 12000ks, how's the car being driven? I know mineral oil doesn't stand up to my right foot very well

Personally I run Mobil 1 5w50 for a long time now and yeah oxidation isn't the best but it holds up and has a nice TBN. Probably should run the 15w50 but it's not retail and I'd have to grab it from a truck stop, or online which I can't be bothered doing just for increased oxidation resistance.

Also that Penrite mineral seems to be SN PLUS certified, rather odd, but then speaking from experience they've fudged a cert or two in the past being a blender and all (i think they get the original blend to spec then later blends don't quite match up to the cert on the bottle). Though please don't take it as a bash on Penrite, I can tell you that Shell did the same thing just recently with Helix ultra 5w40, they have 2 SKUs, one of which started as full Fischer-Tropsch and later got watered down (have proof from my engine wear and you can also deduce from their SDS). Anyone wondering the SN PLUS sku is back to the old formula btw so I'd get that, same price as the old sku.

[immortality]

I ran it longer than normal to see if the engine would get noisy like it was on the other oil which was a fully synthetic 15w-40. I say the proof is in the pudding because the engine is still running smooth and quiet with the Penrite product where it was not with the more expensive synthetic oil previously used. Synthetics tend to hold up better to heat, this thing does not get hot as I have some mechanical sympathy and considering the noises (or rather the lack there off) with this oil I'm happy to use it and don't feel the need to buy the more expensive stuff.

The car is my missus daily driver than I occasionally take out for a hoon.

[shadetreemechanic]

Oh yeah of course you're right there about heat i suppose if that's kept in check the mineral shouldn't shear too much and be fine. It's probably in the style of driving a well, I daily drive like I'm racing so yeah mineral comes out worse for wear. As you say if it seems and sounds better that's an indicator. I do agree some synthetics make more noise than some minerals, have experienced that myself.

[immortality]

I think there is a lot of marketing hype. These engines were designed with mineral oil so I'm sure it will be fine. Modern oils have a lot of stuff removed for EPA reasons (zinc been one) and even though the labels say they are backwards compatible for engines with older oil specifications I believe this is not completely true. Synthetic oils much like iridium/platinum spark plugs have their place but take the marketing hype with grain of salt.

[shadetreemechanic]

Hmm, I don't quite agree on this, marketing hype yes absolutely but IMHO we're basically talking about two levels of technology. Sure mineral is fine on old engines like these but you can't say it's better in any way but cost. The lack of zinc isn't an issue unless you're running flat tappet cams where it's the pressure that oil film alone just can't cope with. And zinc has its major drawbacks in emission system damage.

Yours is an intriguing case in running mineral for basically a synthetic spec drain interval with no apparent issue (though it's unscientific mind you). The way I see it, if I'm running mineral for even half the interval of synthetic it isn't much of a cost saving when you factor in the faff having to change it more often. But each to his own, some people genuinely savour the oil changing experience

Edit: the thing is i suppose mineral can be made just as good as synthetic with the same additive package for a given interval (and if you discount cold performance) but no one does it because usually it's the additives that are meant to wear out before the oil, with mineral it could be the base oil that wears out before the additive. Actually in pure racing you find this kind of thinking, where they use ester bases for super high heat performance but the additive package is kept low since the oil won't be in use too long (like Motul 300v).

[immortality]

Mineral oil was fine for decades doing 10K oil changes but suddenly it's not since synthetics became mainstream? I call BS. the V6 has a recommended 10K service interval from the factory. I ran it for 12K as a test so I'm not seeing an issue?

As for the issue of zinc? Yes flat tappet cams like zinc but there are other areas that also benefit. On a flat tappet cam the lifter rotates as does the push rod and this creates a constantly moving interface between the rocker and push rod. On a roller cam the lifter does not rotate and therefore the push rod does not either so the push rod/rocker interface is constant. I've pulled apart a few ecotecs in my time and they all exhibit wear in the push rod cup/push rod tip area (mine included). This location is a high load-pressure/low lubrication situation where a high pressure additive (zinc) properties will be of benefit.

My method may be unscientific but this engine used to get noisy between 8-10K on synthetic oil and now it's still happy at 12K on mineral oil where the mineral oil cost me considerably less. I'm still gonna change the oil at 10K (as recommended) so I think I'm coming out better.

[vlad01]

I have pulled apart a few engines before and none wore as well as this one I ran exclusively on synthetic, I forget the exact one but it was a full syn penrite 10w 50 or something.

I bought the engine with some 80,000 on it, it had 400,000 when I parted it and I abused it every chance I got, worst of it was WOT out the driveway in -2 to -4 winter mornings with no warm up.

The crank was virtually like new, shinny and smooth with no noticeable scratches under the nail or finger , measured up as new and so I kept it as a spare. Bearing were also great, they looked like less than 100k of use from other engines I have pulled apart and I honestly though the engine was going to be trashed from the amount of Ks and abuse it got but turned out to be one of the best ones I ever took apart. Equally as good was my mates VY motor at 355,000 which also had next to no wear either. He used synthetic only as well, Castrol edge.

On my engine I have had a used oil analysis done and it showed negligible wear metals so I stuck to the oil I used since it was working so well, also the analysis showed the the anti wear and other additives to be spot on to what penrite claimed.

Only disadvantages I found is becasue of the smaller on average and uniform molecular sizes they do end up finding more seals to leak through and also oil consumption become somewhat noticeable where with mineral it's negligible leaks and consumption. But its anti wear abilities I think it's superior especially in harsher operating conditions due to being able to maintain a film and stable viscosity under a much wider range of temps and pressures.

Also note how clean the engine is, that's 400k on the clock. With anything you get what you pay for. Of course there is always marketing hype but if you stick to the upper mid range of any product you are mostly going to be ensured you get good quality for a reasonable price. It's the 2 extremes of the price range where you get stung, That including top of the line and bottom of the barrel, mineral now days is bottom of the barrel and is priced accordingly so.

[immortality]

It's amazing what regular servicing does

Vehicle use also plays a major part. Short trip cold starts are bad for wear and tear where as the old V6 taxi's would do half a million miles without issue on the motor.

Penrite is also well known for keeping Zinc levels higher than other oil manufacturers.

[shadetreemechanic]

Mine also has some wear on the pushrod cups/tips, not really an issue IMO...not enough to justify a lot of zinc. I'd estimate it's got well over 300,000ks and hardly uses any oil (don't know the kays for sure since the odo was stuck when i got it, fixed but it's just gone again). It's had synthetic for a good part of the last 10 years and i've been driving it like stolen for the entire time